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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:26 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
Alessia Val'Mehan wrote:
Opening up this line of talents is rather powerful imo. Having to take a Path to get such a good talent is a good limitation. I personally think its best the way it is.

~Tony


Learning to cast spells takes a level of dedication... spells are a powerful resource for players, should cost you something


And it does in all cases at least the way I propose it. To keep it on even footing, a character taking Templar Itinerant is given the option to task DSC if they meet the minimum requirements. If they don't they have no recourse. Sword Saint provides the ability to take Rudimentary Prayers which in turn opens up DSC. Both paths would have to invest in getting Prestidigitation. Rudimentary Prayers is basically Learn Spell + 1 rank. The Templar Itinerant could either have already taken a rank in the skill at character creation (1 less Talent to invest) or take an advancement to learn the skill at # of ranks = to tier if not Expert or 2 ranks per tier if Expert.

If the intent is to try and limit the number of characters gaining access to any spells at all, then I agree don't open this door. I just don't see how it logically follows that someone who has access to the full spell casting talent isn't able to make use of something that is more limited.

I just thought it was worthy of discussion.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:59 am
Posts: 813
Location: Ontario, Canada
Nierite wrote:
Personally, I was always of the thought that Rudimentary Prayers should have this text:

"If you already have Divine Spell Casting or Rudimentary Prayers, you learn Learn Spell (Ta) instead"
I'm not in favour of this, possibly because I'm one of those people who took Rudimentary Prayers (already having DSC) for the bonus point in Arcanum (and the spell was nice).

If this talent were something granted for free by Sword Saint, I would absolutely agree that the suggestion makes perfect sense. As it is though, I had to take Sword Saint as a requisite for War Priest, and then ended up deciding to take Rudimentary Prayers. I can't imagine there are a lot of people doing this, and it is hardly game breaking. It is a nice little perk that I had to spend a talent on, nothing more.

I realize that my argument is the equivalent of "I don't like it because I don't like it", but making this change will probably mean that I will decide to drop the talent. I am not in favour.

Carry on :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
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Location: Portland OR
The whole thing to me is kind of corner case.

Still, its an interesting corner case. Personally I like it enough the way it is I'm not worried about the campaign's various Templars who get to smite people anyway...

I would note that all other talents that grant skills (or in the case of Sabbatical potentially grant skills) all have the Training sub-type in their header. I would recommend that Rudimentary Prayers and Rudimentary Spells also be given this heading.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:01 pm 
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I just want to point out that Sabbatical is not a Training talent, it is not listed as Training in Codex of Heroes (table or description) or in the Errata (current or proposed). . So unless you are proposing it should be... to which i would say i don't think that fits with the other training talents nor do Rudimentary prayers or spells. The other training Talents do much more then just give a skill point.

~Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
Alessia Val'Mehan wrote:
I just want to point out that Sabbatical is not a Training talent, it is not listed as Training in Codex of Heroes (table or description) or in the Errata (current or proposed). . So unless you are proposing it should be... to which i would say I don't think that fits with the other training talents nor do Rudimentary prayers or spells. The other training Talents do much more then just give a skill point.


Whoops! I stand corrected on Sabbatical. Still Sword and Spell and all the variants of it do a similar thing in blending the granting of skills and spell casting. I see parallels with Rudimentary (X). Since Rudimentary (X) is a limited talent maybe its not relevant.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:42 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
I must have missed something, how do you get Rudimentary Prayers or Spells when you already have Divine/Arcane casting?


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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:59 am 
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Sword Saint unlocks Rudimentary Prayers.

If you have a free Path and Talent slot, its a no-brainer for the extra Arcanum rank.

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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:00 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
So Sword Saint is the issue and not Rudimentary Prayers.


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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:38 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
sword saint is less an issue than the availability of paths more suited to a characters advancement

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 Post subject: Re: Rudimentary Prayers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:53 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
Deviknyte wrote:
So Sword Saint is the issue and not Rudimentary Prayers.


I strongly disagree. Sword Saints represent folks who are outside the Church and don't have direct access to the regular training that members of the Church do to learn proper Cants. Rudimentary Prayers is a stepping stone to get to full casting if desired.

I agree with the proposal that if you gain Rudimentary Prayers after having DSC you just get Learn Spell. This is a case where the mechanics are trumping the story. How does someone logically go from already having a detailed understanding of the Cants of their god to a more limited understanding or enough force of personality (Charisma) to power Cants correctly to a more restricted method?

Sword Saint functions as intended. Rudimentary Prayers need to be adjusted to make sure it's appropriately applied.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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