opps that was my error Eric i ment to say commons not minnions. i'll correct that now

that to me seems like you would rather penalize a table for there party make up. so what if an encounter or two was easy for a table or two, if that were the case rules would be getting changed for due to just about every party make up. because at some point or another a table and party build will be at the right place at the right time with the right skills. last years arcanicon is a great example, it was mostly plant based attacks, where there was a spell that a party member had that when it was reviewed basicly acted as a hold spell, completely shut down the b.i., just a matter of right time, right place. so i don't think it needs to me limited any more then just an attack against a humaniod
as far as this arc being mostly humanoid, you gotta to think that the talent is about being precise with a shot, most if not all humanoids have the same general anatomy, as such a well placed shot would do the same kind of dmg.

what happens then when the 3rd arc is all about undead or some for of celestal( man i hope not) what then, the talent is of no use. so it comes back to right time right place, this arc just happens to be the right place and time for that talent

And why should one talent be able to target ALL creatures? As stated the Cantenari gain an ability to cream Infernals, and I'm sure that eventually we'll get something for Undead. All of these, however, are separate talents and should NOT be simply added onto Murderous precision. As stated, already a table of one or more people with MP can wipe a combat, which is the textbook example of 'overpowered' to me.

As to penalizing table for party makeup, remember "Actions have Consequences". One table may make mincemeat out of a group of Yhing Hir raiders, but be utterly useless against an Infernal Lord. If you make your character to do one thing without considering other threats, then you live with the consequences.

i think there is some confussion here i don't think it should work on ALL creatures nor have i said as much. i think as a base talent leave it at humanoid with the humanoid subgroup in the stat block. but for future uses/ level up options be able to use it on other types of creatures. for example i have the talent hunter (beasts) i know how to track them i know how to do +1 extra dmg to them as such i think that if i have hunter beast and then take and or have MP since i know so much about said beasts that gaining the ability to use MP on the beasts is not to far fetched. and if you look at it that way, then a person who wants to MP ALL creatures would have to take hunter many times over, thus eliminating one of their lvl advancements. it would be an easy special section at the end of the txt, informing of additional advancement options. i realize there is a path/talent that does the same for infernals, but i was just offering up another means in which to use the talents already published. using the above example of beast, a talent tree could be... 1.2 gain any 2 talents (waylay (needed for MP) and hunter (beast)) 1.3 gain talent MP. under the idea i have the PC could now MP humanoids as per base talent as well as beasts. that is not everything that is two very specific threat types. now if a PC was willing to continue to take hunter of the various threat types then by all mean let them use the ONCE per scene talent on what ever they wish, but that means they have to continue to use up that talent slot every tier.

your absolutely right a table with 4 ppl with MP would do quite well in taking out 4 common threats against the humanoid yhing hir but as a whole might only be able to do 12 pts extra of dmg against the infernal/demonic/devil infernal lord which could be reduced by AR whom is not a humanoid per the bestiary. so yes choices do have consequences. MP is good against all humanoids, and what is and is not humanoid is pretty clearly defined on pg 5 of the bestiary, yes it could be a broad subject range, but so too could any of the threat types. really what it seems to me that is being said is that all humanoids are equal, but some humanoids are more equal than others.

now i think that if it was usable every attack or with something like darken the sky ( which has already been ruled a no go and i would assume its also a no go with splitting hairs since it targets multiple targets ) then yes it could be nasty but it cant, its once per scene per a person with it and if that scene happens to have only 1 common and no minions then the other 3 guys at the table that also have it have to be happy with just getting an extra 4 so points of dmg in. which is alot less then the beef fighter who is using Mighty swing for 5 extra every other attack for the whole duration of the combat. the other balancing factor in using MP is that the PC does not know who is the minion, common, elite..etc...so its kind of a crap shot as to whether or not the NPC is killed or just takes dmg

I seem to be in an awkward position. Pedro put forward the idea in the errata that MP would only work in ambush situations. I am arguing that PCs almost never get to set up ambushes in a the shared world campaign and am offering, or trying to offer, alternative restrictions. Pedro might have just been trying to harmonize it with Waylay but I assume he is looking for ways to dial it back a little because its currently so easy to use.

You are certainly welcome to argue to Pedro that MP needs no errata if you think so ... I don't share that opinion, but I'd cheerful keep using it if your viewpoint prevails. Eisener, my primary through the Crusader Arc, has it and I think its his most powerful talent. To me MP is more than having the right stuff at the right time. Parties with multiple MP users "break encounters" fairly regularly in my experience.

My suggestion is that other conditions beyond "ambush" be allowed with MP. I think blindness and being stunned should qualify. Maybe there are other things? An Arcanis version of flatfooted? (I act before you do on the clock?) Or maybe if I successfully feint against you? But my thinking is currently looking for a compromise position that requires some kind of "setting up" to use it against an opponent who is put at some kind of disadvantage.

I think you guys are being overly critical of this talent....

so two things happened in this errata one the clarification that it was always the intent for this to just to affect humans. I'm 100% sold on this.

the second was to make this only happen as part of some ambush. I find this less convincing.
I think the current ruling is restrictive enough that people will drop their talent and rebuild into something else because they don't ever see using it again.

I don't want to add more complexity to the battlefield by keying MP of a dozen different status effects, Right now before errata, you can use it whenever you wish, I think its limited enough in that aspect as it stands.

I REALLY think we should not add new status effects just for MP (like flatfooted and similar)

Additionally there is a monstrous trait (Resilience) that lets a common ignore the first MP applied to it, I think things are balanced right now

This is how the errata is starting to shape up

and I dont think any one is going to take that talent

fainted == feinted?

I have to agree with Josh. I think the clarification on humanoid is fine but with the added restrictions on when it can be used, I doubt many people will take this talent (I doubt I would).

What restrictions would make folks happy and make the talent worth considering without leaving it as a 'must have' talent that everyone seems to have?

It seems that at just requiring "Tactical Edge" against the opponent would maintain the integrity of it, require a little bit of setup but still make it usable.

Otherwise, perhaps remove the restrictions but you have to bypass the target's Fortitude as well?

Thoughts?

John

I think people are looking at the talent as a 'me' talent when in reality it should be seen as a 'we talent'

Have someone diminish sences on someone the kill them

Have someone stun a target, then kill them

Hell two-weapon fighting you can stun and kill a target in two moves

It's limited but still very useful