So, I am planning my character as a sneaky type, but recently got the advice that it isn't really feasible because perception will be a primary skill of every villain, and thus it will usually be almost impossible to sneak up on them/around them. I thought, "that can't be true that often..." since perception isn't an archtype skill for most archtypes. But then I reviewed bestiary and every single monster had perception as a primary skill. Horses! Bug swarms! Every demon! What is up with that?

It would seem to me that perception should be a primary skill on creature types that are known to be perceptive. Hawks. Gaurd creatures. Maybe ambush type creatures. But literally everything? I think that is an over application of the skill. After all, while all preditors/combat beasts must hunt (and thus might argueably might have perception) all creature also walk/run but not all have athletics. This seems especially odd with the demons and other intelligent monsters. Why do Ssanu, which are casters and can most readily be compared to the arcane archtype, have perception?

Something seems odd. I don't really expect an errata, but I would like this considered in future publications that maybe not every single creature should have perception has a primary skill...

Pedro agreed this should possibly be reviewed and recommended I post it here for campaign staff review.

Thanks!

You make an interesting point. Since I do a lot of stat writing, I will try and be more cognizant of it in the future. I know I add Perception to any humanoid "guards" stats. For Ssanu and Naga, they pretty much advance by killing each other off, expect them to be hyper-vigilant. Also, any animals that are either prey, or hunting animals. Wolves would have, as would deer, rabbits, etc. Bears...probably not so much. Hawks would, while vultures would not.

Matt, I strongly disagree about bears. They are ridiculously aware of their surroundings. Their eyesight is actually pretty poor, but they have better sense of smell than about any other animal in the woods and their hearing is fantastic. Besides people, a bear's biggest threats is its own kind, mature males will attack/kill/eat females and especially cubs. Also coyotes and wolves will pester them in areas where other game is scarce.

I actually think most all creatures that live in 'natural' setting, or an environment where the threat of death is a pretty constant, need Perception.

so back to the premise of the the OP, I think that perception should be a really common skill that monsters have, stealthy is something that should happen between sentient races

I do not think that most animals are really that much more perceptive than people who are actually paying attention to their surroundings. Since people are animals and pretty much at the top of the food chain, even when just weilding sticks and rocks. So by the argument that all animals should have it, then all characters should have it as a skill as well. As shown by the archtypes, even are warriors don't get perception as a skill, so being a fighting type should not be an argument for having it.

I think perception is better applied to those that should be known for being perceptive - hawks, but not just any bird. guard dogs and great cats - not just any animal. Yes, being perceptive is life and death in the wild - and speed, strength, stealth, territory selection, pack dynamics, and mating prowess can be as well; but not all animals get athletics, stealth, wilderness lore, empathy, and perform (mating display), etc. as well.

As for Ssnanu and them getting perception because they advance by backstabbing, does that mean that perception is a skill for all people from Canceri? I'm not sure they're any less cut-throat a society.

You really can make an argument for anything needing perception as a skill and deserving it, because it is a basic life skill - even among humans. That's why it seems like it should only be a skill for those things that are actually known for their perception.

ummm, not to be to harsh here but aren't you trying to tell the mountain to move out of your way?

The system seems to have been built the way it is, yeah it makes making a "sneaky" character less feasible, or less "auto win", but that's kinda the point of this system.

I think the Active Stealth roll, vs the passive perception of people and monsters works perfectly fine for this system, and I don't think it should change. I tend to think its skewed to the stealth based character already.

I agree with Josh: I'm sure it was not your intention at all but it does sound noticeably like "The bad guys won't allow me to do this cool thing I want to do, so THEY need to change." I am personally of the mindset that the bad guys SHOULD have Perception unless it makes sense in character for them NOT to have it. For example, if you are fighting a random mob of minions in a bar, it makes sense for you not to have it. If you are fighting guards, soldiers, etc, then it makes ALL the sense for them to have it. I know it sucks for the stealthy characters, but I absolutely abhor character builds which go "I have a good stealth, I basically turn invisible and nobody can see me" because it makes no sense to me in character or out how that should work. I group it in the same folder as people in 3.5 who make characters with such a high diplomacy that (according to the rules) they can instantly sway enemies into stalwart allies and zealous supporters (it just don't make sense to me).

If essentially all villains/enemies should have it as a skill, than it is obvious that it should be available to all archtypes as well. Players have just as much need of it as any villains. But we don't, because there is an idea of balance and choices. The idea that player character spellcasters can get surprised every day of the week by stealthy monsters, but characters will be be virtually unable to surprise spellcasting villains (or any villains really), because that is just annoying to writers is a bit unbalanced in perspective.

I totally understand the dislike of the 3.5 diplomacy problems, but I think stealth is a different matter. After all, what can you do with stealth? If a character is willing to risk going out by himself he can do recon - dangerous but rewarding if it isn't suicide (which it currently sounds like it would be) but if you try to take anything, you can be detected. If you attack - you are detected. If you cast, you are detected. If you encounter a frickin closed door with someone nearby, you are either stopped or detected. You can get surprise coming out of hiding, that is about it. That's helpful with the right talents, but it is essentially a one-shot in a fight. Not exactly broken. Especially since modules are usually written at the speed of plot - which means that as soon as any player is able to enter a room, they get there "just in time" to prevent "apocalypse A." If players stop to do something not assumed in the mod, like the crazy idea of recon, than normally "plot" is triggered by the rogue sneaking into the room, and they need to decide whether to stop "apocalypse A" on their own (suicide), or try to get the party there in time.

Is this trying to tell a mountain to move out of my way? I don't know. Was stealth meant to be a tertiary skill? Is it the base concept of the system that every single bad guy should have perception as a skill (when so few players do)? I didn't think so. It sounds like Pedro may not have thought so. Maybe module authors do think so, I don't know. But it is something I need to know. I can redesign my character to minimize the stealth idea, but I didn't really think that was the point of the system, so I thought I would ask. My actions just depend on the answer. I'll deal either way.

so you are equating all badguys with the monsters that are printed in the bestiaries. that is a false assumption

I think Too Deep may be on to something here. While yes, I agree with posters who have pointed out that wild animals and guards and Ssanu all need perception there are others critters which I think do not.

The Voie? Maybe some but all of them?!? A necromantic ooze or a corpse golem called up from the grave ... probably not super perceptive. Not sure a clockwork golem deserves it either, or a Murder of Bloodflies. Domesticated animals might loose Perception like a draft horse ...

I will try to keep this in mind while finishing the stats for To Die Alone