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 Post subject: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:10 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Let me say first I think the ARG system does a really good job of both being flexible as well as representing the world. The large amount of rules discussions point to opportunities for improvement. So with that said, I'll throw out some areas I think should be reworked in an ARG 2.0.

1. Balance of Archetype vs. cross-archetype development - There should be strong cases to pick each archetype for the core of what it does. Right now it's so easy to take full spell casting as a non-casting archetype for example that there's less of a reason especially to take the Divine archetype.

2. Investment required for "full" casting. Bar's too low across the board for picking up after archetype selection.

3. Advanced spells should scale in power / CTN cost compared to other spells of the same Tier. Great idea to be able to combine spells in new ways, could use some tweaking in execution.

4. Weapon or action speed vs. effect needs to be tweaked. Nice that there's a standard staging up, but doing an average of +1 point of damage for a speed cost of 1 is a poor trade off.

These are just a few ideas.

Thoughts?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:24 am 
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Hat wrote:
1. Balance of Archetype vs. cross-archetype development - There should be strong cases to pick each archetype for the core of what it does. Right now it's so easy to take full spell casting as a non-casting archetype for example that there's less of a reason especially to take the Divine archetype.

I've got a long post on this topic I'm writing now...stand by.

Hat wrote:
2. Investment required for "full" casting. Bar's too low across the board for picking up after archetype selection.

I somewhat agree. I think Initiate of the Gods and Shaman Initiate (and Spontaneously Awakened too) should grant access to Rudimentary Spells/Prayers. I think the paths are fine. Templar would be plenty cool with just access to divine talents. At the same time part of the problem I think is the arcane & divine ... Which I'd fix by meeting the need for a "basic attack" version of a spell that can be cast w/o triggering strain for members of the A/D archetypes.[/quote]

Hat wrote:
3. Advanced spells should scale in power / CTN cost compared to other spells of the same Tier. Great idea to be able to combine spells in new ways, could use some tweaking in execution.

I generally agree. There should also be Teir benchmarks as well for what kinds of spells can do/unleash by tier (single target vs multi target vs area effect. Melee vs. cones/arcs vs. ranged. Also worth looking at control effects (push, forced movement, penalties, domination etc)

Hat wrote:
4. Weapon or action speed vs. effect needs to be tweaked. Nice that there's a standard staging up, but doing an average of +1 point of damage for a speed cost of 1 is a poor trade off.
This I disagree with. Not because I don't agree with the basic premise that it's a poor trade, but because I don't see any solutions that are better than the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:21 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1284
val Holryn wrote:
Hat wrote:
1. Balance of Archetype vs. cross-archetype development - There should be strong cases to pick each archetype for the core of what it does. Right now it's so easy to take full spell casting as a non-casting archetype for example that there's less of a reason especially to take the Divine archetype.

I've got a long post on this topic I'm writing now...stand by.


Cool. Looking forward to it.

val Holryn wrote:
Hat wrote:
2. Investment required for "full" casting. Bar's too low across the board for picking up after archetype selection.

I somewhat agree. I think Initiate of the Gods and Shaman Initiate (and Spontaneously Awakened too) should grant access to Rudimentary Spells/Prayers. I think the paths are fine. Templar would be plenty cool with just access to divine talents. At the same time part of the problem I think is the arcane & divine ... Which I'd fix by meeting the need for a "basic attack" version of a spell that can be cast w/o triggering strain for members of the A/D archetypes.
[/quote]

I want to be VERY careful with making casters even more potent with a single skill. What's the trade off?

val Holryn wrote:
Hat wrote:
3. Advanced spells should scale in power / CTN cost compared to other spells of the same Tier. Great idea to be able to combine spells in new ways, could use some tweaking in execution.

I generally agree. There should also be Teir benchmarks as well for what kinds of spells can do/unleash by tier (single target vs multi target vs area effect. Melee vs. cones/arcs vs. ranged. Also worth looking at control effects (push, forced movement, penalties, domination etc)
[/quote]

I'm ok with that thought. If the spells increase in power or flexibility there should be consideration to how that impacts over all balance of caster vs. non-caster.

val Holryn wrote:
Hat wrote:
4. Weapon or action speed vs. effect needs to be tweaked. Nice that there's a standard staging up, but doing an average of +1 point of damage for a speed cost of 1 is a poor trade off.
This I disagree with. Not because I don't agree with the basic premise that it's a poor trade, but because I don't see any solutions that are better than the problem.


I've played around with some math using a fixed bonus added to the base die as part of the scaling. So rather than d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, it might be something like, d4, d6, d8+1, d10+2, d12+2. Perhaps adding a fixed bonus isn't as "elegant", but it could provide an interesting trade off. Alternatively, you do make it a more standard progression of d4, d6+1, d8+2, d10+3, d12+4. This pulls the average damage up as the die type increases, but there's a trade off in tactical flexibility as it takes a lot longer before you go again as you move up the speed chart.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:01 pm 
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I generally agree with a little more reason to take archetype for what it gives and the advances. However, if it's going to be made very hard for non-caster archetypes to pick up casting and for non-martial to pick up martial techniques, then it needs to be really hard for casters and Martials to get many skils or skill talents, and they need to have more impact.

John

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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Harliquinn wrote:
I generally agree with a little more reason to take archetype for what it gives and the advances. However, if it's going to be made very hard for non-caster archetypes to pick up casting and for non-martial to pick up martial techniques, then it needs to be really hard for casters and Martials to get many skils or skill talents, and they need to have more impact.


I'm fine with that as well. The goal is to make it interesting and balanced enough that every archetype can excel. If it's too easy to get "close enough" to an Archetype's focus as a secondary priority without giving up a lot of what is core to the chosen Archetype, there's a problem.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:39 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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I would like to see a mechanic seperating out templars from priests more. Right now the world priest is used vary carelessly and it causes confusion about a lot of specialty situations about who can be a priest and who can't and whether that means they can be a templar or not too. Plus, templar and priest seem to be so similiar in abilities for such a large difference in role play positions, that it seems strange.

Personally, I would have templars either get, or have access to a one time only talent: TSP (Templar spell casting) that gives them one spell of each tier, immediately upon reaching the tier. (not sure what should happen at tier V, maybe their choice). This reduces their spellcasting power compared to priests, but opens up a whole bunch more talent space for them to take other things after they have TSP (instead of DSC every tier). Plus, while they only start with one spell at tier one, it scales nicely so they have a cutting edge spell every tier.

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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:49 pm 
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toodeep wrote:
Personally, I would have templars either get, or have access to a one time only talent: TSP (Templar spell casting) that gives them one spell of each tier, immediately upon reaching the tier. (not sure what should happen at tier V, maybe their choice). This reduces their spellcasting power compared to priests, but opens up a whole bunch more talent space for them to take other things after they have TSP (instead of DSC every tier). Plus, while they only start with one spell at tier one, it scales nicely so they have a cutting edge spell every tier.


Having a think about that, a Special option for both ASC and DSC (ta) might work for Bard/Templar style characters.

Arcane Spell Casting / Divine Spell Casting
Tier I; Special: Specialist Caster, you learn one Tier I, Tier II, Tier III, and Tier IV spell from a single Tradition which you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic. You can never again take this Talent (but can still take the Learn Spell talent). You may still only cast spells you know that are equal to your own Tier or lower.


This sort of option would be quite good for Astra; there's only three spells she wants to learn above Tier I and I have to go through some complicated building to get Arcane Spell Casting I+II+III+IV into a Martial build.

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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:52 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Southernskies wrote:
toodeep wrote:
Personally, I would have templars either get, or have access to a one time only talent: TSP (Templar spell casting) that gives them one spell of each tier, immediately upon reaching the tier. (not sure what should happen at tier V, maybe their choice). This reduces their spellcasting power compared to priests, but opens up a whole bunch more talent space for them to take other things after they have TSP (instead of DSC every tier). Plus, while they only start with one spell at tier one, it scales nicely so they have a cutting edge spell every tier.


Having a think about that, a Special option for both ASC and DSC (ta) might work for Bard/Templar style characters.

Arcane Spell Casting / Divine Spell Casting
Tier I; Special: Specialist Caster, you learn one Tier I, Tier II, Tier III, and Tier IV spell from a single Tradition which you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic. You can never again take this Talent (but can still take the Learn Spell talent). You may still only cast spells you know that are equal to your own Tier or lower.


This sort of option would be quite good for Astra; there's only three spells she wants to learn above Tier I and I have to go through some complicated building to get Arcane Spell Casting I+II+III+IV into a Martial build.


I like this option except I'd reword (and possibly disagree with) "from a single Tradition which you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic". Do you mean that all spells gained must be from only one tradition or do you mean that the tradition must be granted by the source of magic? I personally stronly disagree with the first (it's okay for Learn Spell but not for even a restricted form of ASC/DSC) but am fine with the second (it basically gives them Rudimentary Prayers/Spells once per tier for the cost on 1 talent).

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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:01 pm 
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I agree....the system needs to support characters who are fighter/casters, fighter/priests, rogue/casters, rogue./priests, and rogue/fighters. Does that mean those characters should be as good as a single,class in either half? No. But they do need to be viable.

John

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 Post subject: Re: ARG 2.0 - What would you like to see?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:32 pm 
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toodeep wrote:
I would like to see a mechanic seperating out templars from priests more.

Agreed.

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