Can you point out which thread that was in? I don't remember ever seeing anyone official saying that male Ss'ressen Templars could not take DSC (and, as you said, it's definitely not in any official documents). I would be very disappointed if true - a lot of the Fire Dragon deity spells are very Templarish in feel (and it would utterly change my character if forced to rebuild).

Found the one I was thinking of.
viewtopic.php?p=10733#p10733

It indirectly affects DSC by not allowing the several of the backgrounds to unlock (Templar etc). Partially a "rules vs world design" outcome.

The other was specific to Ghost Scale Ss'ressen and did make the errata.
viewtopic.php?p=10734#p10734

::sigh:: ...this confusion is part of why I don't play ss'ressen (or elorii for that matter).

The threads mentioned do not directly touch on the issue of male followers of the Fire Dragon. The first one on the Ghost Scales is unique to the Ghost Scales, and the other thread in question relates to the followers of Jegal Sagg. Because JS is not a true "God" he can't grant cants and because he doesn't have temples he doesn't have Templars. That much at least is clear to me.

I don't think either thread is directly on point. And while I admit I could be wrong I don't think they or anything else said so far in the campaign preclude a male (martial or expert archetype) Templar of the Fire Dragon from learning DSC. Part of this may be bias on my part from the time in the 3e campaign where the Sentinels of the Blazing Worm were the male "Paladins" of the Fire Dragon. Now like the other former temple specific "Paladins" they represent an elite within the clergy. It just seems odd to me that males wouldn't rise to become SotBW and cast spells.

(As an aside I am still also confused on whether not members of the Temple of the Fire Dragon and other Milandesian Orthodox Church members can smite each other via Smite Herritic or Smite Infidel).

The role of gender within temples continues to be a confusing issue for me in general. The Rat Catcher path in the BL book clearly supposes that there are male Saluwean's learning divine spells despite the gender ban. I don't know how Henry plans to "square that circle." In D&D the division between full casting clerics and partially casting Paladins (or between clerics and Druids) made the mechanics of the gender divide easy to implement. That isn't as easy to explain mechanically in A:RPG. At least for me.

Add to that the traditional divide between "political truths" and "actual truth" in the campaign for an extra layer of confusion. Yes male Ss'ressen cannot (by biology) become Arcane or Divine archetypes...but the idea that the male Ssressen mind can't handle magic is put to the lie by the presence of primal casters. So if they can figure out primal magic I don't really see why they (biologically) can't memorize temple cants.

As a judge I am not comfortable telling a player his or her male spell casting Templar is an illegal build. If that's the case I believe we need wider and better publicized guidance.

Okay, this is going in the Campaign Guide (which is almost ready for release, honest!!!). I know it isn't what people want to hear, but it is the best ruling we can make based on the realities of the universe (note: Wording may change following final edit of the document, but content will remain the same).


o Male ss’ressen, male worshipers of Saluwe’, and female worshipers of Illiir may never gain Divine Spell Casting (ta), nor may they ever take the Divine Archetype with their respective deities. Any time that Divine Spell Casting (ta) would no longer be considered a Limited Talent (such as through the Templar Background), replace the words “Divine Spell Casting” with “Rudimentary Prayers”. These groups may only learn Cants of their deity through the use of Rudimentary Prayers (ta) and Learn Spell (ta).

o Male ss’ressen, male worshipers of Saluwe’, and female worshipers of Illiir may never take Initiate of the Gods (ba), Initiate Itinerant (pa), or Anointed Priest (pa) with their respective deities.

o Male ss’ressen may never take the Arcane Archetype at any time. Additionally, male ss’ressen may never take Arcane Spell Casting (Eldritch), Prestidigitation (Eldritch source), Rudimentary Spell Casting (ta) for Eldritch spells, or Learn Spell (ta) for Eldritch Spells.

Thanks Cody. That clarifies many things.

Wow.

First: thank you for a very clear ruling that appears to cover all the bases and questions. Does it need to have an additional for oracular Larissan's or anything like that? I thought I remembered there were some rules about gender with some of the Larissan sects, but since I didn't play in the last campaign and its not really addressed in current rules, I don't know what they were exactly.

Second: I find it really interesting that they can get rudimentary prayers and divine spells through learn spell. So they can get divine spells, just not easily. Very nice that it is so clearly spelled out, and very intriguing. It's a loophole to get a little divine casting for those types, so male Templars of the fire dragon can run around with one or two spells, but not many.

I read the ruling as likely a combination of physical difficulties where Male ss'ressen have a significantly harder time being able to channel power and social constraints both on them and on the various followers of Saluwe' and Illir. A/DSC generally implies more formal instruction which would not be supported by the various institutions to grant these factions power.

For all we know it may be more than social in the case of Saluwe and Illir making exceptions like Elendre truly exceptional.

The Larissan sect schism is another interesting topic. I would say that restrictions have more to do with psychology than mechanics.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Those I remembered. The first one doesn't say anything about Templars of the Fire Dragon - just Templars of Jeggal Sag. I'd forgotten that one didn't make the official errata (I updated my char creation info with that note).

Why this significant change for male Ss'ressen? As pointed out in this thread, it has never been said anywhere that there are no Templars of the Fire Dragon with DSC (and there are a few active in the campaign).

Frankly, I don't think this sort of errata should be made at this point. Such a character has been allowed for 5 years and suddenly becomes illegal - that's not a good way to engender happy players. For me personally, my interest in the campaign (and possibly Arcanis generally) will likely dip sharply if I can no longer play Ss'kethis as a Templar with DSC.

Also need to note that while they don't get access to DSC, they do (I assume) gain access to devout talents and can use sacred runes as if they had DSC