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 Post subject: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
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The spell Bindings of Sarish allows Sarishans to bind an infernal to their service:

Effect: Once you start to cast this spell, the Target instantly becomes aware of the spell and its purpose. It will usually do what it can to stop you. If successfully cast, the Infernal is bound to your will and powerless to disobey you. If you are unable to communicate with your bound Infernal, it will simply protect you, killing anyone who dares attack you. Issuing commands to a bound servant requires a Trivial skill action.

But there's also a caveat to the spell:
Special: Infernals with the Unbound Monstrous Trait are immune to this spell.

So this raises 2 (at least) questions:
1. I assume an infernal is either bound or unbound. Presumably this spell would normally be cast on an unbound infernal (why bind an already bound infernal?). But if they have the "Unbound" trait then this spell doesn't work on them. So, what kind of internals WOULD it work on?

2. I can't find the "Unbound" Trait in the Bestiary. Where is it described?

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Anoush val'Mehan, Sarishan Binder (3.7)
Valadriel Maethirion, Kio Duelist (2.5)
Irena val'Virdan, Priestess of Nier (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:04 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
From what I understand, Unbound would relate to a 'native' Infernal to the plane of Arcanis rather than one that originates on the Infernal Planes. Sarish commands the Infernals of the Infernal Planes, but NOT ones 'native' to Arcanis itself. This was seen in the past in the 3.5 days when minions of the Thousand Eyed Man were immune to the powers of Sarish.

As to Unbound not being in the Bestiary, remember that it is only the Bestiary vol. 1. There have been no canon examples of 'native' Infernals of Arcanis (remember, the followers of Uhxrbactit were all 'summoned' en mass by the Myrantian Curse and are technically from the Infernal Plane) which have shown up yet, so there has thus far been no need to specify this Trait yet.

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Cody Bergman
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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:09 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 103
Cody -- Thank you! That helps a lot.

So, now I know that this spell would work on an infernal NOT native to Onara (e.g., one native to the Infernal Planes).

Is there some way for a PC to tell if an infernal is native to Onara or not? I'm thinking of various internals we've faced in Crusade modules and in the Fiendish Expanse. E.g, would a knowledge (the planes) skill roll help?

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Mary

Anoush val'Mehan, Sarishan Binder (3.7)
Valadriel Maethirion, Kio Duelist (2.5)
Irena val'Virdan, Priestess of Nier (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:13 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
Presumably it would, but until the rules for 'native' Unbound Infernals are released in a subsequent Bestiary volume or an adventure, I cannot say this with certainty. Additionally, I remember in the 3.5 days my Holy Champion of Sarish was completely unaware that he could NOT affect the minions of the Thousand Eyed Man, so a Sarishan with Knowledge (the Planes) might just look at one of these native creatures and go "wtf is that thing?!"

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:26 pm 
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In the old days, all 'bound' infernals had a visible symbol (or at least visible to Sarishans). As Neirite mentioned, it hasn't come up in this campaign yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:59 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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page 82 Codex of Heroes
Mark of the Binder (ta) [Limited]
Benefit: You have been trained to recognize the Sigil of Sarish and thus can tell at a glance, if an Infernal is bound or unbound. You must be able to clearly see the Infernal to use this ability.

So far it can only be gained through the Cantenari path.

I was looking at the Bindings of Sarish spell recently wondering why it was made that way. In the past it was different. In the D&D 3.5 days the purpose was to bind unbound infernals (such as the ones from above the Gods Wall.)
I'm sure Nierite is mistaken, all the Infernals from Uhxrbactit's army are unbound, as they are all considered native to Arcanis. They were not summoned by the Myrantian Curse. The Myrantian Curse created tears between the Infernal Plane and the Material Plane and the Infernals walked right through those tears. Definitely not summoned.
Bindings of Sarish would have no effect on any of them.
But you can cast it on infernals that are already bound.

For what purpose is the next question. The only answer I have is to have the infernal working for you instead of your enemy. In the Crusade Arc there are 3 instances of fighting a bound infernal. If you had the spell and could get it off, you would take control of the infernal, and turn an enemy into an ally.

I know one of the things I needed to relearn going from 3.5 to the new rules is Sarishian Steel.
In 3.5 days Sarishian Steel bypassed Damage Reduction on bound infernals, and had no effect on unbound infernals. Tempered Sarishian Steel bypassed Damage Reduction on both bound and unbound infernals.
In the new rules Sarishian Steel adds d8 damage to bound and unbound infernals. And Tempered Sarishian Steel bypasses AR and deals d8 damage to bound and unbound infernals.

Until the Gods Wall fell people very rarely encountered unbound infernals. That is what made them so dangerous (such as the minions of the Thousand Eyed Man). The Sarishian Steel we had was useless and Sarishian's were unable to turn or rebuke them.
I would assume some changes had to be made considering in the Crusade Arc all we fought were unbound infernals.

Sorry this make the spell much less useful. But it probably is the correct way of looking at it.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:31 am 
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Don't forget the doubled wounds that Sarishan Steel can cause!

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
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Assuming that the Vault's conclusions are correct then ...

For all practical purposes, the only reason to cast the spell is to wrest control of a bound infernal from someone else. Not something that will come up often, if at all. Ok, that stinks but I'l live with it. How can you follow the Sarishan Binder path and NOT be able to bind infernals??

But let's say the situation comes up. The target to bind an infernal is its Discipline. Is that enough, if the infernal is already bound? There's no other roll required to oppose the current binder? Apart from interrupting the spell, the current binder can do nothing?

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Mary

Anoush val'Mehan, Sarishan Binder (3.7)
Valadriel Maethirion, Kio Duelist (2.5)
Irena val'Virdan, Priestess of Nier (2)


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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:05 pm 
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In the absence of an official ruling, I would allow the spell to work on any 'unbound' infernals encountered in the Unsealed Lands, simply due to the fact that the stat blocks do not have the 'Unbound' trait.

Personally, I think Cody's answer makes the most sense at present.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about Bindings of Sarish
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:20 am 
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You should potentially be able to bind the infernals beyond the wall. Its clear from the mods that the Encali want to just that. That should be Bindings of Sarish.

But it's never been clear to me that standard rebukes or wards should affect the infernals beyond the wall since they are not bound nor summoned and thus should be free from Sarish's influence. I have never pushed this point as a judge or a player. Because it's potentially a big deal, a headache, and there is nothing in the stat blocks to suggest immunity from certain spell effects.

Cody is certainly correct that some infernals may not be bindable (1000 Man & minions). This further complicates just what the descriptor "Unbound" really means.

Finally I believe you can bind something that is already bound (among other things see Thrice Bound as a limitation). I don't know that you gain complete control by doing so. I think it might limit the creature to actions condoned by all binders (so is more likely to force the creature into "neutrality")....I admit this last part is guesswork on my part. I'd appreciate a deeper explanation from campaign staff on the topic.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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