Ally, Talent, Skill, Spell, Path, Item, Magic Item, Racial, Combat Maneuver and Untyped

bonus's are restricted to Ally, Talent, Skill, Spell, Path, Item, Magic Item, Racial, Combat Maneuver and Untyped now.

What do we usually see a character often able to do to themselves out of this list?

Weapon Specialization +1 (talent stacks)
Advanced Tactics +2 (talent - worst case, usually only a +1)
Benediction +2 (spell, if cast by self)
and combat maneuver, right? So usually a +4 to +5 or so from outside of raw skill. As we progress magic item and Item (exceptional weapons) will probably become more important.

We're talking about a +2 to hit usually coming from either an ally's talent (distract opponent) or spell (benediction or some other) right? Really, what it seems to mean to me is that a character is most likely to get a spell buff from an Ally, and thus by allowing an ally's spell to stack with a self cast spell (as long as they are different spells), it slightly increases the benefit of being a spellcaster yourself. Usually, if you have someone who has talents that will increase your to hit, you can change what you get from a spell to give something else advantageous (avoidance, etc).

The question I really wonder is whether assist ally factors into this or not. My druthers would be that it doesn't, and like the skill ruling, up to three people can assist if needed, but I would like clarification on that.

But what is the goal of making the rules of stacking so complex? I mean my impression of the typical Arcanis player is that they are exceptionally bright. If we can't figure it out without resorting excessive debate, then maybe simpler is better. Or at least more elegant.

So, how much of a modifier is too much? +3? +4? +20? We all have a point at which we think that there is something fishy going on. Why not reach a consensous on that number and just apply a hard cap?

I do think it's too restrictive, but that's how the errata reads currently. I just think for ease of adjudication, that Ally source should be limited to 'ally actions' that aren't Talents or Spells. Therefore, it covers things like Assisting, etc.

John

Am I reading it wrong? Right now the errata allows a spell cast by an ally to stack with a spell cast by oneself, as long as they aren't the same spell, correct?

That is my interpretation of the errata and one of my concerns on stacking. I hope that bonuses will not have 2 Types associated with them, as that is just going to complicate things more than they are now.

John

I think what you've said here is important, but also as important is the rate at which encounters increase in TN's. There was some math done on the old forums I think (It was a post I either started to commented on with some numbers) that by Tier 4/Tier 5, the defenses of creatures outpaced normal rank progression of weapon skills, and that weapon attacks of monsters often outpaced the normal progression of defenses.

I feel that, while stacking shouldn't go unchecked, it should be loosened a little bit to allow those characters who aren't 'combat monsters' to still have a shot at helping out in combat. If someone with only 2 weapon ranks / Tier can never hit a creature and they're attempts at assisting others won't work due to stacking rules, they are essentially left out. The way many of the rules are written now, I don't know if the Stacking Rules were really part of generating those numbers, or if the stacking rules were 'back fit' into what's been written and we're just discussing nuances with it now that make the rules somewhat awkward.

I think some of the Stacking Rules could be simplified. For instance, item and magic item should just be an "Item Bonus". If I have a non-magical gauntlet that gives a +1 to hit and a magical sword that gives +2 to hit, really only the +2 to take effect as you're getting both from equipment you're wearing/using. The Ally bonus I think needs done away with and replaced by specific 'stacking' rules based upon the assist system (No more than 1 person can assist in combat, no more than 3 can assist in a skill check, etc.).

I do think (that while it was also complicated) that some of the D&D systems did a good job at classifying bonuses by the 'source' of the bonus (in terms of whether it's Enhancing something, Natural, an Insight based upon precognition, etc.). But then every bonus needs to include either an explicit type or remained "untyped" and always stack. It's probably beyond the scope of any errata to change the system now, but I think it can be simplified, keep bonuses from being unbounded, but also encourage and nurture cooperative characters and builds.

John

I'm of mixed feelings about this. There's a difference between a "combat monster" and someone who's getting 3 ranks/tier. Casters will primarily contribute in combat through casting. They can and will have 3 ranks/tier for their casting stat. Martial archetypes will have 3 ranks / tier for their weapon. An expert can have 3 ranks / tier in anything they want. Being able to use a weapon during strain makes them more effective in combat at 2 ranks / tier, but they wouldn't be non-useful. Especially as characters grow more powerful, spellcasters tend to dominate. I do think that 2 ranks/tier should be useful in a number of combats especially using smart tactics such as flanking to get tactical edge to offset the rank discrepancy. Likewise I would expect 2 ranks/tier to be useful for non-combat situations as well.



I disagree with this one. A fine quality weapon provides an item bonus to damage of +1. An active Fire Rune (magic item) adds an additional +1 to damage. Without these being separate bonus types, how would you reconcile?[/quote]

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Personally, I am 100% against "ally" being its own super-category of stacking. This means that an Ally can grant YOU ability from a talent which does NOT stack with a bonus an ally gives you from the Aid Another function. If we treat Ally as its own super-category with a repeat of all the various categories of bonus, I am going into battle with a permanent +6 from multiple Beneditions of the Gods into every fight. Hell, it makes spell-casters even more broken as they would be able to double-dip into the 'ally' bonus with their own.

It is much simpler to just have 'ally' be a single source similar to a spell. An ally can cast a spell on you, but that still counts as a spell not an 'ally spell'.

Ally, Talent, Skill, Spell (from any source), Path, Item (Equipment), Magic Item (Rune/Magical properties of item, etc), Racial, Combat Maneuver and Untyped (for all those cases which don't fit)

That's a good catch. Runes should always stack with the weapon/item they are applied to, however, multiple runes shouldn't stack. So if you have a Fire and Frost rune, should they really stack their +1 damage?

John

I vote no. They both apply a static +1 bonus (although of different damage types), and for consistency I say they are not stackable. Feel free to have both on, but you can (realistically) activate only one at a time.