That errata ruling is problematic. If a spell cast by an Ally is now an Ally bonus instead of a Spell Bonus (or Talent Bonus), then Benediction of the Gods cast by an Ally would be able to stack with another spell the 'target character' casts offering that same bonus since they are now different types. If the errata is meant to just limit even further bonuses by saying anything an Ally does is considered BOTH an Ally and Spell/Talent Bonus, then it's just unnecessarily restrictive.

John

I think I agree. So, for example, I think I could cast Conviction on myself to give a bonus to my disciple (source spell), and an ally Illiirite could cast the Illiirite version of Benediction of the Gods (source ally) to give me an additional conviction bonus and they would stack - different spells and difference "sources" per the rules - but, if another ally had any other ability (skill, talent, spell, etc) to increase my discipline as well, that would not stack with the Benediction, since I already have an "ally" source bonus.

My opinion:

The errata is just wrong when it comes to spells. At any table I judge you will not be able to cast Benediction of the Gods (or inertial shield) to get a bonus to your avoidance & then gain another bonus to your avoidance from another spell cast by an ally claiming "its an ally bonus." I think this like the time Pedro tried to suggest that you could stack a talent that gave you +(passive In) with another talent that gave you a flat bonus (or a talent that gave you +(passive Anything else). I believe Pedro generally likes letting things stack. But he walked back from that ruling when it became apparent in discussion how ridiculous the stacking process would become (especially played out over and over again in Spells, Talents, etc etc). I believe the errata will be corrected regarding spells and stacking.


The quoted errata makes me think though that distract opponent and aid another doesn't work together because they both come from an ally. It seems designed to restrict combinations.

Talents would have to work the same. Either Talent bonuses are Talent bonuses regardless of whether you provide it or an ally provides it, or the bonus is an Ally bonus and this would stack. For instance if I have a talent that gives me a +2 to Prowess rolls and an Ally uses a Talent to give me a +1 to Prowess rolls, either they stack because one is Ally Bonus and one is Talent, or they don't because they are both Talent bonuses (and thus not an Ally bonus).

I think the Ally bonus is supposed to prevent multiple allies from taking a general non-sourced action to give you multiple bonuses to the same thing.

John

John

Maybe. I definitely agree with you on spells. And in a home campaign I might agree with you on talents for simplicity. but if Distract Opponent counts as a talent then it doesn't stack with your own wolf pack tactics? I am less confident on this point...I don't necessarily think that was what's intended.

I *THINK* Pedro's intent was to tighten things up.

But I certainly wouldn't argue with you if you were the DM.

With the potential reading of this errata as you interpret, I worry about complexity. For instance, my character often uses both Exploit Weakness (and intends to use Insoirational Performance). Those both give static bonuses from talents. It makes sense to me that as Talent Bonuses,mthey won't stack with other Talent bonuses, and that's easy enough to find out for a character/player before using the bonus on them (or letting characters know ahead of time it won't work with something they have). However, if it's an Ally Bonus, going forward their application of the bonus is dependent upon what spells they are under from allies, as well as any combat actions such as assist ally they are now receiving. That seems overly complicated and will slow down combat more than it is now.

John

I agree. Personally, I would be inclined to design or err towards allowing more stacking rather than less. That might unbalance things some, but I find it very complicated to figure out how and where all potential bonus's come from and which ones cancel out. I sort of like the "Ally" source idea, because that guarantees that a character concept like a bard, whose primary way of assisting is to make others better, works. The idea that someone like that is worthless because fighters in the party also have a talent that give them a bonus that overlaps what theirs does seems problematic. Also, think that the aid another ability should allow for three people to do it and stack, since lets face it, if you're facing something so hard to hit that it is a better application of time for three people to assist than to attack on their own, you probably need the assist!

The thing to keep in mind is that "doesn't stack" doesn't mean it's worthless. The Bonus granted to a specialized character helping others just needs to be higher than what can be gained by the other character. So if as a warrior I always have +1 to hit from a talent, the "help others talent" used by the buffer should be +2 and then there's still a net benefit to the characters.

John

I agree John. Thing is.... For me Assist Ally is a +2 Hit, +2 Damage Speed 2 Action. Anyone with a PR 8 can Assist Ally and grant a +4 to Hit as a Speed 3 action without spending a Talent. If my Allies can override my tallent at any time without taking a tallent, what value is the expenditure of a precious talent in a PC build? More to the point, if I can can get a +4 to Hit without taking a talent, what value is a +2 by taking a talent?

As a result the only real advantage of Distract Opponent is that it is a speed 2 action. Since that anybody can assist ally by faking a kick to the shins via an untrained unarmed attack, the ONLY weapon Distract Opponet Benefits substanatially is the LONG SPEAR. That's great if you have a very slow weapon with reach. Unfortunetly too many GMs object to the optics of toting a 20' spear in a building or dungeon. So that is again a worthless option.

From my perspective, A:RPG is supposed to be a cooperative game at its core. If the mechanics are interpreted in such a way that cooperation is to be rendered non-optimal then we has swerved back to a d20 selfish mindset where the only thing that matters is how much damage you do personally, and how high your defenses are. That wasn't good for the story ten years ago, and I don't think it is good for the story now.

Talents from allies count as an ally bonus John. Your ally's Distract Opponent stacks with your talents.