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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:24 pm 
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I think the only REAL issue will continue to be the Hinterlands, and it is only an issue because the entire region was lumped together for simplicity.

I can see places like Mil Takara (pre-Milandir) and Sicaris and Pearlspar having ONLY Yhing Hir as their language, I can see Erduk having ONLY Erdukene, and I can see Jappa having ONLY Skohir, but for this to work each of these regions needs to be considered its own 'nation' for the 1 language/nation to work. That takes up a lot of page-space assuming the previous format, which is probably why they were lumped together in the first place.

Perhaps the solution to this would be to add next to the list on page 122:

Erudkene / N (Erduk starting nation)
Low Coryani / Y (Censure Starting Nation)
Skohir / N (Jappa/Skoi starting nation)
Milandesian / N (Mil Takara starting nation)
Yhing hir / N (All others)

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
mith wrote:
Nierite wrote:
I think that is a very good compromise!

I beg to disagree... I still think it's a stupid rule.

Why the eff would a Milandisian that doesn't go anywhere near Mil Takara or the Hinterlands, know Yhing hir - who by all accounts don't freakin' like non-Yhing hir anyway.

Why would some common plebe from Bastion know Auxunite? Do ya really think the rank and file over and Giant's Hold knew Auxunite and Khitani?

I have to admit, this is the most trivial thing we've ever argued over for...what...4 pages... So I think I'm going to dial it back and post far less frequently in this thread and take my skull smashing to another one.

But I leave (for now) with this suggestion... Declare a national language per region - or two in the case of Almeric - and require only that language and have everything else be dealer's choice. Everyone wins... Everyone from X can communicate with everyone else from X (which is what I think Pedro's intent was originally) and players still have a great deal of choice in known languages (which is what I and others have been pushing for).

Win, freakin' win, baby.



what your asking for isnt really in the scope of errata

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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Location: Cajun Country
PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
ok compromise time!!!


Quote:
Characters start with a number of languages equal to their Passive Logic, plus any bonus languages granted by their race. Characters must spend at least half their passive logic learning languages from their home region / nation as listed on table XX-XX

May be more complicated than needed, but workable. I'd also say if you round up or down for odd numbers. I'd probably add a caveat that if you run out of national languages before you run out of slots for them you can pick others. So it would look a bit more like this:
Quote:
Characters start with a number of languages equal to their Passive Logic, plus any bonus languages granted by their race. Characters must spend at least half their passive logic (rounded up) learning languages from their home region / nation as listed on table XX-XX. Should a character have already learned all of their national languages they may select other non-restricted languages until they have a total number of languages equal to their passive logic plus those given by their race.

I went with rounded up for the example, but it could go either way. I also added non-restricted languages just in case there are some languages that may have special requirements to learn and didn't want people using the wording as an excuse to snag them. Giving them the out in the last line also would keep people from say Altheria from losing out on learning possible languages just because they probably got all of their national languages from their race.


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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:46 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 104
I like the compromise! A lot! I think it goes a long way to evening the options for Hinterlands natives vs the others.

Since I also like examples, here are a couple:

Example #1: Val from Altheria, starting Logic 4 (passive 2), starting Linguistics skill 1 rank.

Compromise Errata Rules:
* Race: She gets High Coryani + a national language. There's only 1 national language for Altheria, so she has High Coryani + Altherian
* Passive Logic (2): take 1 from remaining national languages and any other 1; no national languages remaining, so any 2 languages, your choice
* Linguistics (1): any 1 language, no restriction

Summary: High Coryani, Altherian, plus any 3 others

Original Errata Rules:
Same, since Altheria only has 1 national language


Example #2: Val from Hinterlands, starting Logic 4 (passive 2), starting Linguistics skill 1 rank.

Compromise Errata Rules:
* Race: She gets High Coryani + a national language. Gotta pick one of the Hinterlands 4 national languages: Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, Skohir, Erdukeen. Let's pick Low Coryani, so she has High Coryani and Low Coryani
* Passive Logic (2): take 1 from remaining national language and any other 1. Let's take Yhing Hir as another national language, plus some other TBD.
* Linguistics (1): any l language, no restriction

Summary: High Coryani, Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, plus any 2 others

Original Errata Rules:
Race: She gets High Coryani + a national language. Gotta pick one of the Hinterlands 4 national * languages: Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, Skohir, Erdukeen. Let's pick Low Coryani, so she has High Coryani and Low Coryani
* Passive Logic (2): Since there are remaining national languages, they have to be taken here. So, take Yhing Hir and Skohir.
* Linguistics (1): Again, since there are remaining national languages, they have to be takent. So take Erdukeen.

Summary: High Coryani, Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, Skohir, Erdukeen (no choice in ANY starting language)

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Last edited by marybamford on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:28 pm 
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I like the compromise.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:40 pm 
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Location: Miami Florida
Ok everyone

after some deep soul searching, I have decided to leave the current rules as is... I also reshaped the question to completely brake down how a player gain languages.

Quote:
Q: How to characters acquire their starting languages?

A: there are four steps in character creation which the character acquires languages.
1) Race: A character gains all Automatic Languages listed in their racial entry
2) When you chose your Nationality you chose 1 native language, see table 2-6 for a list of native languages.
3) After hero creation the character gains an additional number of languages equal to their passive logic, 1 of which must also be from their nation’s list of languages.
4) If the hero starts with ranks in linguistics they gain an additional language, 2 if they start with 3 ranks or more.

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:53 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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when Race lists "national language" excatly how many languages are granted?

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:58 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
when Race lists "national language" excatly how many languages are granted?


it says Native Nation, and your hero gains 1 language, much must be chosen from their native nation

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:11 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 104
Leaving the rules alone just re-opens the same can of worms. Questions about the languages keep coming up. See below.

Q: How to characters acquire their starting languages?

A: there are four steps in character creation which the character acquires languages.
1) Race: A character gains all Automatic Languages listed in their racial entry

2) When you chose your Nationality you chose 1 native language, see table 2-6 for a list of native languages.
-- What if your nation only have 1 language (e.g., Altheria, Coryani Empire) and you already get it from your race? Do you lose out on this language choice, or can you pick any available language?

3) After hero creation the character gains an additional number of languages equal to their passive logic, 1 of which must also be from their nation’s list of languages.
-- Again, what if you already know all your national languages -- having learned them from your Race or Home Nation choice? Do you miss out on one of the picks here, or can you just choose from the list of available languages?

4) If the hero starts with ranks in linguistics they gain an additional language, 2 if they start with 3 ranks or more.

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 Post subject: Re: Languages - further clarification needed
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
marybamford wrote:
Leaving the rules alone just re-opens the same can of worms. Questions about the languages keep coming up. See below.

Q: How to characters acquire their starting languages?

A: there are four steps in character creation which the character acquires languages.
1) Race: A character gains all Automatic Languages listed in their racial entry

2) When you chose your Nationality you chose 1 native language, see table 2-6 for a list of native languages.
-- What if your nation only have 1 language (e.g., Altheria, Coryani Empire) and you already get it from your race? Do you lose out on this language choice, or can you pick any available language?

3) After hero creation the character gains an additional number of languages equal to their passive logic, 1 of which must also be from their nation’s list of languages.
-- Again, what if you already know all your national languages -- having learned them from your Race or Home Nation choice? Do you miss out on one of the picks here, or can you just choose from the list of available languages?

4) If the hero starts with ranks in linguistics they gain an additional language, 2 if they start with 3 ranks or more.


I think this is fine with some further clarifications. Personally, I'd answer your questions as follows:
2) If your nation only has 1 language and it was granted by your race, you lose this one.
3) If your nation only has 1-2 languages, then your passive Logic languages can all be any language.

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