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 Post subject: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
In the Deathbringer write up in the primer it says:

Quote:
Races: Val and humans make up the majority of the
Deathbringers, with val’Mordane being the most predominant
due to their affinity with the Lord of the Tombs


Are val common enough that val'Mordane are actually more common than plain humans in this organization? I know due to power and politics they are likely to be the most predominant in positions of power, but I didn't know I that would be true in the organization as a whole.

Also, is most predominant redundant?

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Vals, almost by necessity, make up a very small portion of the human population. That said, also recall that val are functionally the "Noble Race" in the setting. As such, they are over represented in 'heroic' roles such as priest, knight, general, etc. As such, val'Mordane may make up less than 1% of the population, but maybe 20% of the Deathbringers. Similarly, val'Mordane may make up less than 1% of the population, but none of them are farmers or blacksmiths which skews the demographics somewhat.

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:17 pm 

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Location: Michigan
Nierite wrote:
Vals, almost by necessity, make up a very small portion of the human population. That said, also recall that val are functionally the "Noble Race" in the setting. As such, they are over represented in 'heroic' roles such as priest, knight, general, etc. As such, val'Mordane may make up less than 1% of the population, but maybe 20% of the Deathbringers. Similarly, val'Mordane may make up less than 1% of the population, but none of them are farmers or blacksmiths which skews the demographics somewhat.


That is what I thought. I assumed they are 80% of the leadership of the Deathbringers. But if they are only 20% of the total of the Deathbringers, than I am wondering about terming them as the predominant race, since it would seem that human is really the predominant race. Or maybe it just meant they are the predominant form of val in the organization. Not sure, which is why I thought I would ask. It made it sound like more than 50% of the organization was val'Mordane, which would surprise me.

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Based on the wording there will also be dark-kin (between 5-20% at a guesstimate) and smattering of other races (too insignificant to worry about; *probably* no undead but you can never be entirely sure with closed organisations).

Deathbringers probably spend a lot of time chopping up deceased relatives of the local humans. Which may or may not be appreciated (depending on local religions leanings).

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:30 pm 

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Nierite wrote:
Similarly, val'Mordane may make up less than 1% of the population, but none of them are farmers or blacksmiths which skews the demographics somewhat.


Where did you come up with this? Could you please cite a source or is this just opinion?

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:48 pm 
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It is completely an opinion and meant to be illustrative. As far as I am aware, there is only one book that has ever been written in Arcanis which gives even a somewhat accurate view on demographics within the Known Lands of Onara, and that is the Canceri sourcebook, and even that book doesn't give good numbers on Human/val ratios. At best, it shows that they are considered effectively the same race within the bounds of the universe, with Dark-kin representing a fairly consistent 1% of the population even in Canceri.

We do have one other possible source of numbers on the ratio of humans to vals, and that is the stats of Bastion as presented in Legacy of Damnation. HOwever, since that city was listed as having a MILLION people which was refuted in the adventure Condemnation, they must be taken with a grain of salt.

For reference, that book cites a number of 8% (all of which val'Vasik). Assuming it is a city of 100,000 and not 1 million (more reasonable) that means that within a few centuries since their creation a total of 8,000 val'Vasik existed, which makes the losses at Hope's End truly tragic.

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:52 am
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Nierite wrote:
Similarly, val'Mordane may make up less than 1% of the population, but none of them are farmers or blacksmiths which skews the demographics somewhat.


You didn't answer the question, why aren't there any val'Mordane blacksmiths or farmers? You stated it very definitively.

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Because vals are the noble class of their respective realms, and those are peasant jobs. That isn't to say it isnt impossible, but the relative ratio of noble vals in those jobs vs normal humans would not be equal.

As to the val'Mordane specifically, the majority of the family lives on the cold plains of Canceri which are fairly desolate, and neither of those cited jobs are honoured in the Nerothian religion. Pirest, warrior, and architect and stonemason would be much more "proper" of jobs for a val'Mordane.

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:43 pm 

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I think you are using false equivalency here. Just because one nation has things one way, and Canceri is an extreme example, does not equate out to the rest of the world.

While val are 1% of the population, they are not automatically noble. There are poor val, disgraced val, bastard/by-blow val, contrarian val, rebel val, and many other val that are stuck in bad positions that would make them take working class jobs. There could also be val'Mordane blacksmiths that are experts at making weapons, in the same way that Elebac is. To say that NONE are blacksmiths or farmers does not take into account the variety of people in a vibrant world. That is like saying that all halflings are thieves, all dark-kin are evil, and all Milandisian Kinghts are morons (ok that last one might be true based on the mods that I have played).

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 Post subject: Re: ? about val pecentages
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:05 am 
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When I read the Deathbringer entry I read it as the Val Mordane make up the majority of the Vals who are members. Which makes sense. You could certainly be another Val family and want to fight the evils unleashed by the murder of Illiirs in the Mythic Age. But you would expect the Val Mordane to be prevalent/dominant in an organization organized under the Temple of Neroth. There was/is a significant Coryani branch of the val'Mordane. With the loss of their lands in Abessios 2 generations back, there should also be are lots of val'Mordane who don't have an estate to keep them busy.

I agree there are disgraced or lower class Vals. So maybe Cody shouldn't have written quite so emphatically. Still. His general idea is correct. While I don't doubt that you can find a poor Val Mordane farmer *somewhere* in the Coryani Empire, you probably have to turn over A LOT of rocks to find him (or her). It's not a common occurrence. Most mundane towns and villages IMO don't have a Val as their "blacksmith."

I would also note that ancient Roman demographics (according to Wikipedia) put urbanization rates at 10-15% ish. And up to 20% in the Italian peninsula. That will be a high point till Europe gets to the 1800s (and drop significantly during the Dark Ages, Medieval period & Renaisance). So along with 80%+ of the population, many Val live outside cities. But they would generally run large estates.

It's hard to know how many Val there are as a percentage of the population, but I think the 8% quoted for Bastion is either a special case or just too high. Val don't breed true anymore. I think it might be more than 1% since I believe male Vals generally have lots of chances to play the field. Perhaps it's at 2-3% ... but that's just my personal guess.

I would finally note that more than their bloodline powers I believe Vals dominate society by all the favors they've piled up through centuries of Patronage. Being a Val is like being a member of the Carnegie, Kennedy, or Rockefeller families in the US. You have (old) money and probably even more important - lots of connections. If you need something you know who to ask & can trade favors. Get this "internship" for my kid and I'll donate to your foundation ... etc. So exiling yourself from the family network of privilege probably takes some doing. Maybe common threads in these cases would involve interfamily rivalry, personal grievances with powerful members and having too much pride to ask for help when you are down. I would also note you also inherit the family's enemies. So - according to the Arcanis theme that no ancient grievance goes unprosecuted - being a poor val'Emman swine herd probably sucks hard when 3 val'Virdan Patricians pass through the area (and vice versa).

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