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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:57 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
I think it has a lot to do with perceptions of equality and availability.

If nobody got magic items (or other nifty items) or everybody got items or if the cash payout was on-par (though see second point) then nobody would have any issues. There are very few adventures I've seen where the cash comes anywhere near the value of the items. Nobody likes to feel like they got the short end of the stick.

The other problem is the extremely limited availability. For most items, if you miss getting it in a specific adventure, you will never (currently) be able to get that item - you can't buy it and there are no other adventures that offer that item. This can be exacerbated by some characters having very few items that are appropriate for their character (my primary has been in 14 adventures and only even wanted 1 of the limited items (and that was a rune which can be purchased)) - if you miss the one item in the one adventure then you may end up with nothing "ever". Having items in adventures that aren't appropriate for my primary char doesn't bother me (lots of other people find them useful and I knew he was very non-gear focused) but I would be upset if I finally get to one of the very few items that fits and lose out due to rolling.

The magic item bonuses in Arcanis are not critical (like in D&D) but they are nice and can make a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:06 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
Posts: 208
I too have been at table where players are discussing loot distribution, and I've found that players aren't discussing "perfect items" they are discussing the "convenient to have" items. Like wands with Sorcery runes, or greaves that grant +1 to AR, or maybe they are not interested in the item itself but they want the rune that's on it.

Personally looking at the modules I have played/ran. I have found modules that have 1-3 magic items (certed or un certed) usually cause a problem when you have a table of 5 or 6. But modules that have provided 6 items with the stipulated that a player may only have 1, and 1 per table, has really worked out. Or the choose your own item rewards, I'm thinking of one module where you got to pick the weapon/armor, and the rune on it.

I like both these situations because everything is dealt with at the table.
If the "choose your own item" doesn't have regionally restricted items you are looking for, it's ok because the player picks something expensive to sell. Some of the best rewards (IMO) have always been, make your own weapon/armor/shield of x quality and/or x material. You pay or you don't pay doesn't matter they are both good.

What I might suggest for the situation where the magical items are listed and a player is only allowed to select 1 item and there is 1 of each item per table, is increase the available items from 6 items to 10 items. Sometimes you have more fighter types at a table, sometimes more caster types. The more items available for similar builds the less players will argue about convenient to have items. "That's ok I missed those greaves that grant +1 AR, because I got the helmet that does the same thing." "That's ok I missed the scroll with the exotic spell, because I got the wand that grants +1 Arcanum."

Well the question comes up what to do with the those other 4-5 items that no body picked up from the list. The answer, nothing. They weren't there. The characters weren't discussing what to take over 10 items. It was the players discussing what items are appearing as loot. Table of 4 has 4 items appear, table of 6 has 6 items appear.
I understand sometimes you create a module to hand out that Elorii runestaff of Meliros the Healer, but the only Elorii at the table is more interested in the short sword with the fire rune. If no player wants it, then it doesn't show up. If 2 Elorii want it at least you created more relics than just one, to provide more options.
As Henry said these items are not necessary to complete the campaign. We want these items for our own reasons, whatever they might be. Why go through the hassle of creating a new system of distribution like the Marketplace, when the modules can provide a similar function and already has in the past.

Why create blanket rules, like all magic items have a value of 0? If the author wants it to be unsellable it's Priceless, if the author wants it to have a value they give it a value. PCI giving the ruling that all magical items are valued at 0, makes people have worthless items, and it doesn't make it very appealing to purchase magical items if they become valueless to sell in the future.

I have seen the duplicate item rule used twice, once by myself, because 2 people (Kelekene and Nol Dappan) wanted a fire rune, and there wasn't enough other items to placate either player so I allowed a duplicate item to be created. The other there was 3 magic items, 1 player picked one there was no argument, 1 no one wanted, and 1 2 players wanted. The GM just removed the 1 item that no one wanted, and the 2 players each got the item they both wanted.
Personally I'm not a fan of the rule, and the example of allowing multiple duplicates to the point of everyone at the table getting the item I would never allow.

When an author is thinking of placing relics in their module don't just give 2-3 relics. Give players options in module when it comes to relics. Allow authors to continue to decide the value of their own loot. Of course not every module needs to hand out relics, sometimes all you walk away with is a bit of wisdom, small amount of coin, and 1 person got a fine sacrificial dagger.

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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:21 am 
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Are Magic items necessary in Arcanis? Not really. Runes are powerful, but ultimately unless you start rolling average damage their total contribution ranges from powerful to not very. As far as magic items go. . . of the 3 I've gotten (Cloak of the Crusade, Medal of Valour, and the Bone Ring of the Ghost) I've only actually used one of them (the Ring). I like the idea that magic items are rare, and that there is a VERY set amount a Hero can truck around with them (something I'm not sure everyone remembers). That said, there is a list of about 4 things that I would REALLY like to get for my character for fluff and mechanical reasons.

Addendum: I think a lot of the "Gimme shiny!" that people get is a left-over of the D&D mindset, where the cloths (or gear) really did make the man!

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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:58 pm 
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While Arcanis certainly doesn't require magic items (as other games have in the past), they can make things a bit easier or add additional versatility to a character pretty regularly. Personally, I know my Skeletal Cloak is a great item whenever I'm in combat. Preventing Tactical Edge from enemies is huge! There are a few other items like that.

Let's face it, it's human nature to like to get shinies every now and again. I think the Arcanis group is unique in that a large majority of the players are in it for the story, experience of playing, and the people. But it's also fun to get something tangible that not everyone else is going to have. Right or wrong, it's an RPG and there is the concept of magic items. Luckily and to the credit of PCI, the majority aren't game changing, so they help flesh out characters stories, shore up weaknesses, or enhance key contributions for the most part. I think they are an important part of the game, but certainly not the reason for adventuring.

That said, I think having more 'non-magical' rewards would go a long way to making people feel they are getting something shiny without things turning monty haul.

The campaign started off nicely with "Favors" and "Faction Bonuses". However, I don't think I've yet to see a single Favor come into play at a later time, nor do I remember my reputation with a certain group hurting or harming my interactions in future mods.

Perhaps some time/energy can be spent by people (campaign staff, authors, everyone really to generate ideas) to see what types of things would interest people. These 'unique' but non-magical rewards could go a long way to establishing a continuity between modules as well. Just some thoughts..

John

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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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I agree with John on the faction and favors. I think it's a separate issue from "loot" but one worth discussing. Faction/favors are a really nice touch except that most of them have absolutely no possible effect in later adventures (except secret societies for qualifying for some paths). Especially with arc 2 being more geographically limited (mostly in/around the First City), it would be nice to revisit these (either existing or add new ones) and have them actually have an impact.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:14 pm 
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My personal view (and something I am going to try to write into mods if I can) is that any points of favour with a certain body should grant a person bonus' to social skills with them. For example, you are talking to King Gerhardt and you need to convince him to let someone live. The 'base' TN for convincing him is 30, but if the person talking has +3 Fame/Reputation with the Crown of Milandir, I would give them that as a bonus to their roll. It is situational as hell, but this way we actually USE our Fame/Reputation/etc.

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 2:12 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:01 am
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It was a minor gripe players had from the last campaign was the large amount of certs that they held onto just incase they needed them or came into play later on...but never did. They would really like to see it happen more often so that they feel rewarded for sticking with all the adventures rather than levelling up with a cert. They love getting special items, even if they are mundane common quality but with a cool description or a funky name. They all like to feel like special snowflakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:21 am 
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PCIHenry wrote:
Is loot really that important to make an adventure an enjoyable play experience?

Does getting some sort of reward somehow validate the time spent playing for you?

If you were playing Call of Cthulhu or Star Wars instead of a fantasy game, would you feel cheated at the end of the game because you didn't get that copy of Libris de Ghoules or a thermal detenator.

Since we've already established that magic items are not necessary to continue to play in the game, aren't the experience points garnered and the enjoyment of the adventure enough?

+1
Heck, +100.

I'm getting into this thread late, so I'm reading the whole thing at once and so many thoughts are running through my head. The first is that this same discussion pops up on a regular basis. And it boils down to the fact that you can't please everyone, all the time. No matter what "solution" (and I'm still not convinced that there is a problem, here) you like best, someone will disagree and the debate will continue. The campaign staff can't win, here. Additionally, every change of rules will alienate someone. And since people tend to remember being alienated more than they do being sated, changing rules is ultimately a losing proposition.

Keep magic items rare. It fits the story. And the story is what brings players to Arcanis.

I remember playing in year 1 of Living Greyhawk. I live in Michigan and was part of the Furyondy region. Our triad took to heart the limits placed on rewards. (Many regions' triads did not.) And consequently, in year 1 of that campaign (before the rules changed) I recall losing gold due to my upkeep costs being higher than my share of the treasure in multiple adventures. Were the adventures still enjoyable? Yes. In fact, this led to some great stories about PC's walking out of dungeons with furniture or masterwork doorlocks due to their value. It was a lot of fun. Did some players behave badly and always argue about treasure? Yes. But you can't legislate attitudes. Don't try. Do what makes sense for the story. Players who are problems will be dealt with in time by players who refuse to play at so-and-so's table because they ruin the fun of the game. It's sad, but it's true. I know of multiple instances where it's happened.

Play the game and have fun. If your PC walks away with something, bonus! If someone else's PC walks away with something, bonus for them. Did you just waste 4 hours of your life because someone else walked away from the game with more imaginary stuff than you did? I don't think so. Don't legislate the game such that everyone must remain equal. You won't like the watered-down results you get. (If you've never read the very short story of Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. I suggest taking 10 minutes of your time and reading it.)

Okay, I think I touched on all the talking points that were floating around in my head. One final note... Play for the fun of the game. And don't be a jerk. If everyone follows those two guidelines, everyone will enjoy their play experiences.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 10:39 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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@Scott Reid: By Jove, I think he's got it! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Loot availability/distribution in adventures
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:31 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
I love the topics this discussion is touching on.

I really want to quote Eric Wiener's introduction to the 3rd ed FiM books but that's a lot of text. So one small snippet:
Quote:
Magic items are one of the defining elements of the D20 System and fantasy adventure fiction as a whole.


Granted we aren't in the D20 system any more but we are still certainly part of the genre.

Right now we get a lot of stuff in the way of money and favors and fame, and limited or non existent ways to spend/ use those, we have some stuff and we desire to make that stuff into things that make our characters more meaningful, now granted we aren't going to get an Excalibur or the Spear of Longinus, But a Fleshripper ... maybe?

now without spoiling anything, there was a REALLY cool axe given out to a select group of people, and I think that was Fantastic! I don't remember the specific about that Item, but I certainly remember the story behind it. Some of the items from the Vault really hit on this story element of things too.

I think everyone strives to improve their character, to make it more badass, I usually come up with a short list of things , Exceptional Weapon, Exceptional Armor a few runes, a smattering of magic items (at tier 3 bracers of precision, Yes Please! but that they are pretty over powered in general) and everyone wants a legendary weapon cause that is what legendary warriors wield.

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