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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:19 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:01 am
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Our group meets at half seven and by the time we settle it's usually between eight and half eight before we start. While we don't try and rush it's usually about 1 in the morning before we finish most times.


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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:27 am 
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SamhainIA wrote:
...snip... think likewise you have misunderstood my response. I'm saying that player agency is not a binary/ on/off thing, rather its something that had gradations and those gradations are directly related to how close the writer and Judge are.


A fair point.

I don't think anyone expects the same freedom in a shared campaign that you would find in a home campaign. For example in the old campaign Jaeger used to burn for the chance to topple the Theocracy in Canceri. In a home campaign that might have become the focus of the whole shebang, if I could bring the DM and other players around to pursuing that same goal. But I never expected (or tried to) talk a party into abandoning a living module's plot to go attack the agents of the Dark Triumvirate (..."Yeah, c'mon guys. I know the mod is set in Altheria. Still, breaking the back of Canceri will be righteous!!!).

So by agency I am not talking about leaving the confines or scope of a module. I mean that you make significant choices, and those choices result in outcomes and conclusions. For your example, in the module In Darkness, Light, you travel with and talk to a priest having a crisis of faith. The priest, and whether or not he regains his faith is the heart of the module ... not the glory of the PCs. But still, the PCs have agency in that module. The outcome is driven by what they do and say.

On the other hand the soft point at Arcaniscon was a disappointment for me. Even with a great judge and some really good people at the table, I didn't have a good round. I would have been happier chatting in the bar. And the reason why (for me) was that I didn't feel like I had any agency during the mod. Nothing I did as a character or player made a difference on either the journey to the Vault or what I'll call the "side issues" that unfolded during the journey.

A halfway point on Agency is the "linear" module. Encounter one goes directly to two. Two goes to three. If you try to skip from three to six the module is at risk of breaking down...unless you have a good judge who improvises to get you back on track. Ditto if you want to choose a different faction or think "outside the box." Sometimes I find this style of mod to be less than stellar. But sometimes there are other pay offs. For example, I read some of Uncle Henry's mods as being linear ... but they also have some "Big Reveal" at the end. I love that stuff!!! I am willing to buy into just about ANY premise he wants to float because I trust there are impressive "goodies" at the end that will answer questions and raise new ones.

Still, with the local Portland group, To Shake the Pillars of Heaven was one of the hardest modules I've run. The module is fairly straight forward...when Patriarch Felician is arrested Elandre hires the PCs to help her steal the Sacred Scrolls of Illiir from the big Cathedral in Grand Coryan. One table had a loyalist who was convinced that Elandre was wrong to try to take the scrolls. He wanted to fight against the PCs to prevent her departure. I did let that happen, and by some careful strategy and a dollop of luck things unfolded "as they should" but let me tell you i was sweating it as a judge to get them all out of the mod alive and feeling that they weren't being railroaded (ie that their characters had agency). The other table was less problematic ... but was convinced they'd done something "wrong" when Felician was executed and the Godswall fell.

Pillars remains one of my favorite modules. But I believe I "sold" it locally only because I've earned the trust of the local players over time. There is something of an unspoken contract between players and GMs that goes something like, "Player: I am going to follow the hook and I'm not going to deliberately try to derail the module. Judge: Cool. I'm going to use the module as an outline and I'm going to try to accommodate all the reasonable things your character might do even when they aren't fully fleshed out in the module."

Since this thread is about writing modules I'll close by adding the writer to the contract: "Writer: I will try to think about how different factions would view this adventure that I'm writing. And if some major faction would have issues with the way things unfold I'll include a sidebar or other instructions to help judges and players."

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:53 am 
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mininin,
When I spoke of PCs affecting the story, I was speaking of within the module, but you do raise a valid point. It is important and gratifying to players to see their choices mirrored in the overall campaign. Of course, that falls as much to the campaign staff as individual authors.

Eric,
I agree completely. A good judge can really help the party and the module come together. That said, as an author, I do my best to make it as easy as possible on the judge. Even the best judges will struggle with certain modules. Kiss of the Beautiful Devil springs to mind...

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:54 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:01 am
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There is also the difficulty of writing adventures that make everyone feel included even when they logically shouldn't be. Dark Kin got no love in the first campaign and perhaps should have had a mention to that extent during character generation. Finding ways to include people who are on the outskirts either through play style or character choices or sheer awkwardness can be a challenge. The other extreme can also be off putting with too much attention or perceived favouritism towards particular races and classes. It's not easy to pull off successfully all the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:18 am 
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As an author, I find that instilling the agency that involves the PC's with a sense desperation helps overcome any prejudice they might otherwise have.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:38 am 
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mininin wrote:
There is also the difficulty of writing adventures that make everyone feel included even when they logically shouldn't be. Dark Kin got no love in the first campaign and perhaps should have had a mention to that extent during character generation. Finding ways to include people who are on the outskirts either through play style or character choices or sheer awkwardness can be a challenge. The other extreme can also be off putting with too much attention or perceived favouritism towards particular races and classes. It's not easy to pull off successfully all the time.


As a player (and I think the only one of maybe two) of a dark-kin in the first campaign, my choice was actually motivate by the fact that I would have a hard time. I *expected* to get shunned, etc. My character was built on the premise of making others see the value in dark-kin when they weren't expected it. Unfortunately, in many adventures I was treated no differently from humans, when I feel I should have been. One of my favorite was the trip to Tir Betoq; I spent a nice hour in the company of 4 very nice Sarishan binders. My greatest triumph was being given a chair to sit down on...an uncomfortable, stone chair, but still a chair!

I would encourage module authors to include sidebars for certain races in certain modules. This adds depth and really gives those characters a chance to feel 'different'.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:50 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:03 pm
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Location: Mahwah, NJ
Harliquinn wrote:
As a player (and I think the only one of maybe two) of a dark-kin in the first campaign, my choice was actually motivate by the fact that I would have a hard time. I *expected* to get shunned, etc. My character was built on the premise of making others see the value in dark-kin when they weren't expected it. Unfortunately, in many adventures I was treated no differently from humans, when I feel I should have been. One of my favorite was the trip to Tir Betoq; I spent a nice hour in the company of 4 very nice Sarishan binders. My greatest triumph was being given a chair to sit down on...an uncomfortable, stone chair, but still a chair!

I would encourage module authors to include sidebars for certain races in certain modules. This adds depth and really gives those characters a chance to feel 'different'.

John


You got to sit in an uncomfortable stone chair !?! I remember in the first campaign when there was a soft point which explicitly stated that Dark Kin players should not play that particular soft point (coincidentally also took place at Tir Betoq. My Holy Champion of Sarish was barred from entrance due to his 'taint'....c'est la vie.

As an author, my personal challenge has always been crafting the 'initial encounter'....the proverbial 'call to the heroes'. Outside of the 'themed groups' such as the Elorii, B.E.A.S.T., LoTWH, most tables are oddball 'motley crews' of Milandisian Knights, Overtly sexual Larissan priestesses, horse loving hinterlanders, horse eating gnomes, Dark Kin pirates, Self Flagellant Ansharans, etc. etc. all wrapped up into a party of 6 or 7. While they were nicely comprised of being the 'irregulars' in the Crusades, authors have to sometimes fit square pegs in round holes to make things work.

I am not saying that weird diversity isn't fun, I think it leads to some interesting roleplaying dynamics. However, I have always wondered what the backlash would be if an NPC in the introductory encounter RIGHTFULLY would pick and choose which 'heroes' he would send on the mission (and then the GM would hand out appropriate pre-generated characters to those players)..however that type of Realism would never play out in a shared world campaign.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:39 am 
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Joe makes an excellent point. The sheer variety of backgrounds, motivations, and differences of all the characters that could play an event makes it nigh impossible for an author to make everything available/open to an/all set s of players.

Everyone needs to bring along a fair bit of suspension of disbelief if they want to make what they are interested in, then try to fit it into a campaign story that may not be as completely transparent as some would like.

Its hard for some folks to agree with, but some perfectly awesome adventures plots just aren't suited for some characters. Joe and John's examples are prime examples. Personally, I am fine with that. So players should not bring the expectation that every adventure will accommodate their specific character concept. I'm not sure that is something Peter was originally getting at in this thread, but its worth mentioning, I feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 10:51 am 
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My big issue isn't so much the "being inclusive", but simply STARTING the adventure. Everyone expects the "You are mercenary adventurers who would take any job for money" hook, but it has been done to DEATH. Hell, even when it is the most appropriate start to an adventure there is a lot of pressure to NOT do it anyway. Trying to think of other more contrived reasons to get the Heroes involved always takes me way longer than writing the rest of the damned adventure ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Writing convention scenarios
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:41 am 

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http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/plots.htm

there ya go a pretty comprehensive list of plots and hooks.

But yeah your right the hook is the hardest part of the adventure writing process for me too.

I really liked dyvers (living greyhawk) because there were a lot of readymade plot hooks like the thieves guild and the local businesses.

Arcanis is difficult because its so big you have to have a reason for the players to be in a particular place. Pathfinder does this very well by assuming any one that's an adventurer is a pathfinder. Living city was mostly based in one locale, and it was presumed that you would just happen to be there.

Arcanis on the other hand, is large, and its less plausible for a hinterlander to randomly be wandering around the rural area of milandir, so there has to be some contrivance to get Heroes from all over to some particular place.

Off the top of my head, the old campaign used a variety of NPCs to do the same (Ardelia, Deopholus, Menesis etc etc) and in my mind we don't have as many significant NPCs built up yet, Count Felix being a prime example of one of them.

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