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 Post subject: Re: Blessed Lands KickStarter Updates
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
It has always seemed to me that perhaps the sleeping emperor is trying to avoid the rules about what Valinor can and can't do, and that is why he sleeps and only occasionally gives directions. A more hands off approach than Manetas, but still some control. So my guess would be that he hasn't fallen but may be walking the line (or in case it is possible, he's trying to walk that line, but maybe fell off it years ago without realizing it).

If that is the case, then it surprises me that he has so much respect for a fallen valinor. That ties into a bunch of other questions as well. Manetas had lots of ally Valinor, right? Were all of them fallen then? If so, are pretty much all Valinor we see fallen? I mean, why didn't the gods take more Valinor with them to fight oblivion, if they aren't doing much here? I've kinda wondered, as I've heard that a third of the Valinor got locked away in the defeat of Manetas. He seems like it would be a lot better if there had been the option to send them off to fight oblivion like the honor of Cadic is.

Of course, now that we suspect that the sleeping emperor is the dreaming of Larissa, he may instead be asleep because of his need to dream to see the future. So maybe he is fallen, and just sleeping and dreaming the future is his specialty.

As for the power difference between fallen and not, I would assume there is a major difference in power between the two, but we haven't seen it, unless all Valinor we've seen are fallen. If a Valinor in grace is that much more powerful than a fallen one, than the Word of Illiir should have been able to smack down Manetas. I wonder if it's just the difference between being a (very powerful) priest/psionicist and losing the priestly abilities if you fall - but keeping all the uber psionic physical abilities

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 Post subject: Re: Blessed Lands KickStarter Updates
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:43 pm 
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Was Skizz the Rat (aka, Skozorantus, the Strength of Saluwe') fallen? I cannot think of any reference to him(?) being that way beyond having a name.

Though typically we associate 'fallen-ness' with having a given name, more and more it seems like the Valinor already have given names and they simply lose their Title after 'falling'. As such, going to Game of Thrones, Eddard the Hand of the King would become simple Eddard after 'falling from grace.'

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 Post subject: Re: Blessed Lands KickStarter Updates
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:53 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
I posted a letter IC under Tukufu with my meditations on Valinor and their state of "fallen-ness" or not. Not going to recap everything here but will just note that the state of being fallen represents a breach of "valinor ethics" (to perform a function) rather than any "moral" failure. And that when you get down into the weeds the supposedly bright lines separating the two become murky. (skiz and numeneh both had names but did not appear to be fallen. Manetas still had wings while Xabal and Uromeh did not...).

I do want to note that Blood Reign of Nishanpur, an old PCI product, mentions in passing that a lot of valinors during the war between Illiir and Neroth cut deals and sometimes changed sides in exchange for more power. Sarish ended up sucking a lot of them up in the end as his various princess to help run the infernal armies. So muddying the waters yet again some fallen valinor did not really loose anything in the way of power. Loshnek is presumably the poster child of this. No longer a true Valinor, he is Sarish's number 1...the guy who manipulated the game board to get rid of Manetas and the guy fighting a cold war with the Sorcerer King.

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 Post subject: Re: Blessed Lands KickStarter Updates
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:20 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
Posts: 208
val'Holryn brings up a great point. Blood Reign of Nishanpur gives the story of how Manetas became fallen. Sarish watched as the Valinor of Illiir almost crushed the Valinor of Neroth in a heavenly battle. Fearing he would be next. Sarish send Loshnek to turn the tides. Working against Manetas's pride, he told him he's never be more than the first among the God's slaves (Valinor). This caused Manetas to revolt against the Illiir's wishes, leading him to the story in the Blessed Lands book, and taking 1/3 of the entire Valinor host with him. but in the end he failed. The Valinor that sided with Manetas were also cast out. Sarish taking advantage again, gave each Valinor a choice, he couldn't undue the others' commands, but he offered them the chance to lead his Infernal forces against the Gods' enemies and maybe one day they would atone for their mistakes. Urumeh the Honor of Cadic, and many others, took the chance and we saw him leading a losing battle on another plane. I can't find the reference but the ones who didn't take his offer were cast out to wander the void. (I'm guessing that means wander space.) Fast forward to the End of Year 6. Manetas is back, his new and improved plan is in action. We learn from the Love of Illiir, that again the Host is divided (not equally this time) those against Manetas (the smallest group), those with Manetas, and those who choose not to take sides (the largest group). Thanks to magical coercion those who choose not to take sides join the group against Manetas. Once Manetas was again trapped, all the Valinor that joined him were trapped with him as well.

Pride became too prideful, Patience lost his patience, Honor lost his honor. These are the only 3 fallen Valinor we know of the rest are speculation. As for the difference between fallen and not fallen, it would appear to be power. In the story of how Patience lost his patients Xabal states.
Quote:
His role was only to observe, never to act. But he had acted, had done that which could not be undone, and whatever happened, he would never again be the Patience of Sarish. Even now, his master would know what had been done, and would be stripping all power from the Valinor that dared break his rules – the rules of the Binder, that none dared defy. ... With that word, the last of Sarish’s power was truly gone from the Valinor, and he fell to earth.

What power? Could we break it down into the mechanics of the game in a way we could understand, possibly. The end result is when a Valinor goes against the final order from the Gods (like Patience), or when their God declares it (like Manetas, or Urumeh), they become fallen and lose something.

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