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 Post subject: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:25 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:46 pm
Posts: 16
I have a rule interpretation question regarding the Precognition spell in 5E.

The descriptions for two of the four possible spell effects read as follows in the Campaign Setting book:
Quote:
• Avoid the Blow: If you are attacked, as a reaction you can end this spell to force your attacker to re-roll their attack with disadvantage.
• Avoid Disaster: If you fail a saving throw, as a reaction you can end this spell to re-roll your saving throw with advantage.

One of my game groups is confused over the language that calls for a “re-roll ... with” either disadvantage or advantage. We’re not sure if this means the die is rolled a total of 2 times or 3 times. What is the game designers’ intent here?

So, for example, let’s say the attacker’s initial attack roll was a 20. A hit.

Interpretation #1: Ending the spell forces the attacker to add disadvantage to the initial roll. One additional attack is rolled, this time a 17. Still a hit.

OR

Interpretation #2: Ending the spell forces the attacker to re-roll the initial attack, this time rolling with disadvantage. The initial 20 attack is subject to a re-roll, and — because disadvantage is now imposed — two attacks are rolled. One is 17, a hit. The other is 3, a miss. So the disadvantaged attack result is 3, a miss.

Interpretation 1 does not seem to “force your attacker to re-roll their attack with disadvantage.” Rather, it seems to force disadvantage after-the-fact on the initial roll. Interpretation 2 has an explicit “re-roll with disadvantage,” but we’re worried that it might mistakenly apply advantage/disadvantage one too many times.

I guess we’re getting a little hung up on the use of “re-roll” versus just “roll” in the text. We could see how it could imply either interpretation.

Any guidance?


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:57 am 
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Posts: 983
The language is fairly clear. After the result is determined (not before; the Hero may have already tried to use Fate to add Advantage/Disadvantage to the initial roll), the spell can be expended to force an entirely new roll.

This makes it a very powerful spell. Effectively, they have two opportunities to succeed in a roll (with potentially Advantage both times) or negate a Critical Hit upon themselves.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.4
LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:36 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Barring anything from official errata, I agree with Southernskies’s assessment. The plain reading seems pretty clear. Yes, it’s a powerful effect.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:48 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1470
Hello,

First - the rule designer does not frequent this forum, so if you want to ask him a question, you'll need to go to the Arcanis Facebook Page and ask there.

However, although I'm not the 'rules guy' I was at every meeting where we went over each and every rule (a mind-numbing experience for me), and I distinctly remember the point that this is a powerful spell.

So, to your question - Southernskies is correct. If the attacker makes his roll (presumably hitting) and the person attacked ends the spell, this negates that attack roll, forcing the attacker to roll the attack again (a re-roll) with disadvantage. So, if the attacker rolls a 20 and a 2, the result is a 2.

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Henry Lopez
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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:27 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:46 pm
Posts: 16
Thanks everyone for the clarification.
That’s how I read the spell as well, but good to have confirmation.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
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Having just created one...

Make sure the GM is enforcing the 10gp/day casting cost! A week on the road wipes out your earnings during the intro adventures.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.4
LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:46 pm
Posts: 16
The spell is coming in game from a Val bloodline power, so no spell components.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule Question: Precognition Spell
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:17 pm 
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It is also available to Tultipet Dwarves; who are NOT exempt from the material costs.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.4
LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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