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 Post subject: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:12 am 
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Arcanis Players Guide wrote:
Pugilist.
Your unarmed strike now deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. While taking an Attack action you may make an unarmed attack as a bonus action. If you take the Tavern Brawler feat your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 damage.


Is this a strait die, or do you still get to add your Strength modifier on an attack action?

Related, I presume you do NOT get to add your Strength modifier when used as a bonus action (to be consistent with most other bonus actions, such as TWF).

x-ref:
SRD PH wrote:
On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:11 am 
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I would assume yes. You get a d4 plus your strength as a normal action.

I am less confident of the bonus action. Yes it is true you usually don't get to add the modifier twice. So that would suggest you wouldn't' with your unarmed strike either.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:15 am 
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TWF bonus action specifically does not allow attribute (the nearest comparison).

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:38 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:52 am
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Actually, in Pugilist, you do get the strength bonus to damage on every attack.

Other examples, include the monk, who gets the strength or dex bonus to damage on every attack, even those done in a bonus action. In Polearm Mastery, you get the Str bonus to damage on the bonus attack.

Only in two weapon fighting, do you not get the Str/Dex bonus to damage on the bonus attack. That is probably because for TWF you don't have to make a specific choice (no feat or class selection required). Anyone can do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:59 pm 
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:twisted:

Just solved a character design problem I was having.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:21 am
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I had a question on the pugilist style. If a character with pugilist and tavern brawler wears a cestus, does the character use the 1d6 for tavern brawler, or the 1d4 of the cestus? As a worn weapon, it augments unarmed damage.

The reason I ask is that the cestus is versatile, and allows you to switch to either piercing or slashing damage.

(If memory serves, in previous editions, the cestus gave a flat bonus to unarmed damage).


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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:23 pm 
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bioramaxwell wrote:
I had a question on the pugilist style. If a character with pugilist and tavern brawler wears a cestus, does the character use the 1d6 for tavern brawler, or the 1d4 of the cestus? As a worn weapon, it augments unarmed damage.

The reason I ask is that the cestus is versatile, and allows you to switch to either piercing or slashing damage.

(If memory serves, in previous editions, the cestus gave a flat bonus to unarmed damage).


I'm no one official but I assume you'd be able to use whichever is most advantageous. In this case a d6 for unarmed that is also versatile (piercing or slashing).

I have the thought that Feats are a very precious resource.

If you want to spend a feat to make your unarmed fighting better you shouldn't get dinged by wearing a cestus. IMO. You given up a +2 increase in Strength, which would have given you +1 to hit and damage in melee (and Athletic checks...). You probably now have a net +1 to damage, and other bennies from Tavern Brawler which mostly helps you grapple (if you worked it out so the +1 to Strength you got from the Feat took you to an even number, congrats on good character planning...). Finally you have a weapon that is is synergetic, but still at the low end of the damage range.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:03 pm 
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I've got a spreadsheet set up to factor damage options. Note this does not account for the benefits of AC or to-hits numbers. Just the average damage if every attack hits.

Code:
Fighter with various Fighting Style options.
Level   #Att   Cestus   Pugilist   Pugilist+Brawler   Cestus TWF style   Greatsword GWF
1   1   6   12   14   12   12
2   1   6   12   14   12   12
3   1   6   12   14   12   12
4   1   7   14   16   14   13
5   2   16   21   24   24   28
6   2   18   24   27   27   30
7   2   18   24   27   27   30
8   2   18   24   27   27   30
9   2   18   24   27   27   30
10   2   20   24   27   30   32
11   3   30   32   36   40   48
12   3   30   32   36   40   48
13   3   30   32   36   40   48
14   3   30   32   36   40   48
15   3   33   32   36   44   51
16   3   33   32   36   44   51


Once magical weapons are factored in, TWF with two cestus pulls ahead quickly from 10th level onwards (with +2 weapons). GWF greatsword is 'top dog' (as expected) but you can't use a shield or other defensive style. TWF is right behind (again due to not being able to use a shield).

Still haven't played, so don't have a feel for how important AC vs damage output is.

I also haven't factored in martial archetypes (things like improved crit for Champion), which accentuates it further.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:09 am 

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My question is whether a TWF unarmed fighter could take advantage of the new defensive dualist combat style offered in the primer as well as the duel wielder feat, since the second hand is both "completely free" and a weapon.

From the sounds of it the existing feats are going to get rewritten and styles are going to become chained, so the possibility to do it will last very long. Besides, it is spending both a style and a feat, just so you can get the same advantage as a nonmagical shield, so probably not worth it anyways, power-wise. Not what I consider broken as a design.

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 Post subject: Re: Pugilist Combat Style
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:01 pm 
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toodeep wrote:
My question is whether a TWF unarmed fighter could take advantage of the new defensive dualist combat style offered in the primer as well as the duel wielder feat, since the second hand is both "completely free" and a weapon.

From the sounds of it the existing feats are going to get rewritten and styles are going to become chained, so the possibility to do it will last very long. Besides, it is spending both a style and a feat, just so you can get the same advantage as a nonmagical shield, so probably not worth it anyways, power-wise. Not what I consider broken as a design.


this is an interesting fact if 5e.. unarmed strikes are not "weapons" per say... you would not benefit from either two weapon fighting.

Quote:
Your unarmed strike now deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. While taking an Attack action you may make an unarmed attack as a bonus action. If you take the Tavern Brawler feat your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 damage.


Note that Pugilist allows you to make an additional attack as a bonus action, it does not say "off hand attack as a bonus action".. this attack can be a kick or a jab

you gain your full strength bonus on all your unarmed attacks, even the bonus attack you gain from the Puglist feat.

you don't need the two-weapon fighting feat at all.

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