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 Post subject: mundane blood
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:42 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
I understand the source of the mundane blood feature for humans - that they can't be sorcerers. That was true in 3.x.

But does that make sense with story? Ordainers come and harvest those born with arcane power. Is that only val? Was the little boy with the spellplague a val? It seems that limiting the arcane spark to val makes it a small percentage of a small percentage, and it seems like the humans would be more likely to just consider it a "val problem." It's always seemed to me like humans have to worry about this, especially since there are stories in history of humans becoming sorcerers in the time of myth (the guy who stole sorcery from Sarish, for example) and that was supposedly before val existed. Also, it means groups like the brotherhood of man and stuff could never have sorcerers. Very limiting.

It makes no difference to me rules wise, since if I want to play a sorcerer I can always play a val, but it seems very limiting and strange for the story so far to say that humans can't be sorcerers.

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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:43 pm 

Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 6:46 am
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They can be wizards. The spark is still in humans, they just have to train it instead of having it naturally.

Also, keep in mind that the Primer is a temporary thing that shoehorns Arcanis into existing 5e rules. Things may change once the book comes out.


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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
FGJustice wrote:
They can be wizards. The spark is still in humans, they just have to train it instead of having it naturally.

Also, keep in mind that the Primer is a temporary thing that shoehorns Arcanis into existing 5e rules. Things may change once the book comes out.


I'm not sure that is true. We'll have to see if they keep the wizard class in 5e. There really is no equivalent if the ARG. The two closest things to wizards are elder casters, since they spend years studying and refining their spells like wizards do, and possibly sorcerer priests since they study the to learn arcane magic as well. But in most the canon arcanis stuff, there is usually talk of being born with the spark. People born with it may not realize it until later in life, which is why characters can "pick it up" later rather than in character creation, but it is always there.

Plus, it makes little difference to the story argument of the ordainers stealing babies - since obviously babies haven't trained as wizards yet. (and the idea of ordainers taking wizards was because they had trained their innate spark - ordainers wouldn't care about something that could just be learned by anyone, I thought the Sorcerer King was trying to learn about the spark). So human's wouldn't fear the ordainers, but in general they do. Why if there are no sorcerer humans? Also, so few people have the spark, that if the spark is restricted to the already minority val, how are there ever enough to create the famous coryani battle mages? It just seems like that from a story perspective the spark must exist in humans.

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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:53 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
Arg vs 5e.

In Arg, humans are proportionately just as likely to have thr Spark as others, but are not as inherently magical as vals with their psionic capacity. 5e, however, has distinct demarkations between Sorcerer, Warlocks, and Wizards (and Bards) which don't neatly fit the same mold as the more "tailored" Arg system. As such, the equations don't work as well. The 5e system as written now spacles over it to an extent, though it is still not a round peg in a round hole.

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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:54 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 103
toodeep wrote:
I understand the source of the mundane blood feature for humans - that they can't be sorcerers. That was true in 3.x.

But does that make sense with story? Ordainers come and harvest those born with arcane power. Is that only val? Was the little boy with the spellplague a val? It seems that limiting the arcane spark to val makes it a small percentage of a small percentage, and it seems like the humans would be more likely to just consider it a "val problem." It's always seemed to me like humans have to worry about this, especially since there are stories in history of humans becoming sorcerers in the time of myth (the guy who stole sorcery from Sarish, for example) and that was supposedly before val existed. Also, it means groups like the brotherhood of man and stuff could never have sorcerers. Very limiting.

It makes no difference to me rules wise, since if I want to play a sorcerer I can always play a val, but it seems very limiting and strange for the story so far to say that humans can't be sorcerers.



This is mainly an issue of putting core 5e stuff into Arcanis with the Primer. In core 5e, sorcerers have some heritage that grants them their abilities; either a draconic ancestor, a fey creature, or something else that makes them able to wield magic.

In Arcanis, it doesn't really work like that. Almost anyone can be born with the gift for arcane magic, and with further training even those with a small natural talent can improve their abilities.

What the Primer is really trying to say is that if you want to play a human wielding arcane magic, you need to play a wizard. Humans in Arcanis don't fit any of the sorcerous origins from the core.

All of this will become clear once the Arcanis 5e book is released.

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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:56 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
Auroris wrote:
This is mainly an issue of putting core 5e stuff into Arcanis with the Primer. In core 5e, sorcerers have some heritage that grants them their abilities; either a draconic ancestor, a fey creature, or something else that makes them able to wield magic.

In Arcanis, it doesn't really work like that. Almost anyone can be born with the gift for arcane magic, and with further training even those with a small natural talent can improve their abilities.

What the Primer is really trying to say is that if you want to play a human wielding arcane magic, you need to play a wizard. Humans in Arcanis don't fit any of the sorcerous origins from the core.

All of this will become clear once the Arcanis 5e book is released.


I understand this and will be fine with whatever is decided. The problem, I guess, from my perspective is that Arcanis doesn't have much of a tradition of people who gain magic through study (i.e. wizards). In most core material it seems that most people need to be born with a spark to be able to use arcane magic, which I generally take to be a sorcerer. The only two classes of casters I can see being wizards are sorcerer-priests (who study like priests but learn arcane) and maybe the elder casters who spend thousands of years studying. Oddly, in the current primer both of these can be sorcerers (though elorii can be either sorcerers or wizards).

The main problem I see is a story-problem of the threat posed by Ymandragore. The Ymandrakes are the boogey men who can come and steal your babies. But according to the new rules, they only steal Val babies, since they are the only ones to be born with the spark. That significantly changes the nature of the threat by removing it from all humans. It makes the Ymandrakes only a threat to the nobles of society, and should dramatically change the composition of organizations of the hawk and the shield.

Additionally, it should be noted that for those without a spark, becoming a wizard should be pretty difficult because wizards can't advertise to gain recruits without being harvested. Something should be said about how one becomes a wizard, if all wizards need to stay in hiding.

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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:22 pm 
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Again, yes and no.

Yes, to manipulate the Arcane, you have to be born with a certain in-born talent and the 'spark' to manipulate the arcane. However, the different methods of the Arcanum (in the ARG system) require different amounts of study. Primal requires almost no 'skill' as you are channeling the power of powerful spirits. Eldritch requires a level of control, but it has always been described as a fairly wild-form of magic where people send massive amounts of arcane energy to do an effect, at some personal cost (these are the closest, mechanically speaking, to a D&D Sorcerer). Elder magic (requiring a specific brain chemistry) requires DECADES of study to understand their magical arts, even if they have the inborn ability to manipulate the Arcanum (this would be closest, again mechanically speaking, to a D&D Wizard). Psionics are, of course, a different kettle of fish as the magic is less a learned skill and more a school of mental discipline probably more akin to the Bene Gesserit than a wizard.

Now, with 5eD&D, Arcanis has to once again crowbar its world into a mechanics system that wasn't designed for it. Due to the restrictions of the OGL, the 5eArcanis system will be a lot closer to the ideal than the 3.5 system was, because PCI has to change a lot to give the players all but the most basic options for character creation, which forces PCI to alter the classes.

One way or another, wizards have the arcane spark. This has been in existence since the 3.5 days. The difference (by my reckoning) in the 3.5 days would be that the difference between a Val and a Human would be the metaphysical equivalent of being born to money, and being a 'self-made-man'. Both groups have the potential to become "millionaires," but because of the divine blood in the Val, they are able to become "millionaires" in their own right much easier than a human born of more mundane (less-magical/rich) blood. The barrier for entry to become a "millionaire" is simply much lower, and many times they would become a "millionaire" at a younger age when they are less able to control "their spending habits". For these humans to become "millionaires," they must overcome their more mundane blood through much training and effort.

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Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 1:47 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:19 am
Posts: 128
toodeep wrote:
FGJustice wrote:
I'm not sure that is true. We'll have to see if they keep the wizard class in 5e. There really is no equivalent if the ARG. The two closest things to wizards are elder casters, since they spend years studying and refining their spells like wizards do, and possibly sorcerer priests since they study the to learn arcane magic as well.


What about Eldritch? The Battlemages of the Coryani Legions and pretty much every Sanctorum Mage come screaming to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: mundane blood
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:55 am 
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They are closer to Sorcerers in terms of power-set and flavour. Remember: Wizards study magic and channel it in controlled ways based on their learning, sorcerers "feel" magic as they channel it based on their emotions and force of will. This is closer to how Eldritch casters work in ARG, as the shorter lived races (ss'ressen, humans, dark-kin, and even Eladru cyclopses when we've seen them) simply lack the mental capacity to do the arcane mental math so they just 'wing it'.

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
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Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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