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 Post subject: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:08 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
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Location: Portland OR
How does multi classing Holy Champion levels work with a Divine Trinity cleric?

At first and second level of Holy Campion you don't need to commit to a holy order/deity so I assume that taking one or two levels would be would be fine. (Pg 107 explicitly says you are just a templar till 3rd level, and not fully inducted into a holy order.) Although I don't see it printed anywhere in the campaign guide I assume that you can't combine Holy Champion of one god with Cleric of another given the way Arcanis works.

But can you combine levels of cleric in the Divine Trinity with a Holy Order from one of the three gods you believe still exist (Beltine, Neroth & Sarish)? Could you combine them with Soldier-Saint?

Thanks for any clarifications

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
From a story (as opposed to rules) perspective, no you cannot. The HC orders are all Mother Church (and related) orders, and the Death Mongers are from a different religious lineage. The Order of the Hidden Demon would consider a Death Monger to be a heretic and would never willingly admit one into their order. Similarly, you would never see a Khitani Beltinian Hospitaler because the order is not one associated with the Kalindruhl.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Broadly that's a good point. I wasn't immediately thinking of who is calling who a heretic when I asked the question. But I'm not sure that this is completely true across the board.

Some HC orders are ancient, and go back to the First Imperium like the Death Bringers of Neroth. I don't know if there are any DB in Khitan but it seems at least possible that there were some who went in the exodus. They were around in that period. I think Beltinian exorcists or hospitalers in Khitan are also possible...in addition to whatever Khitan has been "home brewing" over the last 1000 years. But its not always clear to me what traditions have crossed what state lines. I agree strongly that the Order of the Inner Demon is strictly Mother Church. I think that has as much to do with the fact that there is only one place you can go to get that training as they are baked into MC dogma. Other HC orders are all over the place. The Warriors of the Eternal Flame are at least in Canceri (Dark Triumverate), Coryan (Mother Church) and Erduk/Nol Doppa (their own thing). Nothing stopping a Milandesian PC from becoming one either so though it would be weird I suppose we should also add M.O.C.

Its true that the distance between the Divine Trinity (9 of the pantheon are dead or a deadbeat) and the other Churches are significant but the difference between the Dark Triumverate (wallow in evil to allow your soul to sicken of the mortal world and ascend to the paradise of the Gods) and other Churches should not be discounted. I believe its possible for some Holy Champion Orders to cross "heretical" lines.

Finally there is the issue of the Soldier Saints. They don't answer to anyone, but protect all pilgrims (MC, MOC, Kahlindrul) equally. And say what ever your background is, it doesn't matter once you join. Against that, insisting that Illiir is dead or gone seems to go against what the order believes. Could a Divine Trinity cleric join the Soldier Saints?

((As a practical matter I will limit myself to "Templar" in this character since many story issues issues vis-a-via church lines make the idea grey, unclear or flat out inappropriate - but I welcome other thoughts on HC orders that extend through the Blessed Lands and beyond.))

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:30 am 
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Location: Central Alberta
Some of the orders may go back, and there may be variations in other nations, but in the fluff for most (but not all) of the orders it makes it fairly clear to me that they are specifically "Known Lands" groups, with all the biases that those carry. You may be a Knight Templar, but if your modern iteration is based in the US and you were raised there, the culture and biases would be focused on your national flavour of Catholicism vs. that elsewhere.

Also, unless this changes in 5e from ARG, the Soldier Saints do not accept Khitani or anyone else beyond those from Milandir and Coryan flavoured churches. They may protect all, but they do not accept all.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:07 pm 
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val Holryn wrote:
How does multi-classing Holy Champion levels work with a Divine Trinity cleric?


They are such a fringe order beyond just taking one or two levels of HC (being templar) I really can't see them muti-classing with any other divine casting class or joining any other holy order.

And story-wise you cannot be a cleric of one god and a holy champion of another god...

I'm very liberal with rules and muti-classing and even I would look at a player that did that and ask them if they even read the religion section.

I may have to add a section on muti-classing to the campaign guide.

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Pedro Barrenechea
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 Post subject: Re: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:40 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Thank you both for the thoughts. That clarifies thing for me. I'll definitely keep it to templar level.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: HC and Divine Trinity/Death Mongers
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:23 am
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Location: Miami Florida
val Holryn wrote:
Thank you both for the thoughts. That clarifies thing for me. I'll definitely keep it to templar level.


Just sticking to Templar levels works because you can always say you started as a temple guide for the Death Mongers (they would have some) but not an official holy champion order. works within the confines of the story.


Now for codex of faiths, I have an idea for an Order of Templars, not connected to any particular order, but protecting and serving the institution of the church more than any particular sub-sect.

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Pedro Barrenechea
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Minor Deity of Typos

Paradigm Concepts
Miami, Florida


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