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 Post subject: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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The Art of The Tongue, The Book of Harns, The Love of The Three Kingdoms, and The Wisdom of Yh'gri't are all listed in the equipment section of The Children of The Sky, but no price tag. Should these items have a GP value?

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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:27 pm 
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At least some of the books have appeared as cert. Before the launch of the 5E version of the campaign at the last Arcaniscon events were set in Plexus and Eppion and Kintago's traveling emporium turned up with the chance to buy several of the books. Tukufu has a copy of the Book of the Harns...

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Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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Ah, that's a shame. Me and my family only started after 5e was released.

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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:45 pm 
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We live in an information age. Have a question? Wikipedia provides a fairly good launch point for finding the answer. I sometimes find it hard to just naturally think about what is available in the world of Arcanis. But I guarantee you there is nothing like Wikipedia in Arcanis beyond the odd wandering Altheria. If you have a question, probably you and your friends just have a good gossip, grounded in metal ignorance, and come up with some speculation...

Books are valuable. In 5E they books you note should probably have a value around 1,000 gp in the rare circumstances you find one that is up for sale. How do I reach that number? ...

In the House of Wisdom, from the golden age of Bagdad, famous works by Euclid, Ptolomy and Galen were translated from Greek to Arabic and then copies were made from these "master translations" by reading them aloud to rooms of 20 scribes. The process of scribing a book could take a scribe the better part of a year after gilding and artwork were completed. So there is a pretty finite limit to the amount of books any given city or noble court is cranking out in a year. Those twenty scribes each produce ONE copy of Euclid's Elements over (more or less) a year.

How many skilled scribes can you afford to dedicate to the project? What other competing priorities are there that could you be spending the money on? The House of Wisdom was the hottest thing for scholars since the collapse of the Great library of Alexandria. And it was heavily subsidized by three generations of Caliphs who valued the prestige that came from being *the* center of learning in the known world. From what i've read, I would guess that its direct yearly production would have been measured hundreds of books. That would have been supplemented by visiting scholars coping books on their own, but still by modern standards its a tiny amount of books being created.

The giving of illuminated (fancy, gilt and art filled) books as gifts was also a prestigious thing to do and we can assume that something like the Love of the Three kingdoms or the Art of the Tongue are primarily propagated as a gift by Prince Iragir and other nobles. Beyond just the scribes there would be commissioned art for the tomes as well. Gold leaf isn't cheap but in the Brilliant History of Art in Color (by Victoria Finlay) I learned almost all blue used in illuminated Medieval manuscripts was called ultramarine (beyond the sea ... i.e. beyond the Mediterranean) and came from ground up lapis lazuli (a semi precious gemstone) mined in what is now Afghanistan.

So even nonmagical books should be stupidly expensive in Arcanis. A relatively frugal scholars work in black and white is still the product of a skilled tradesman working for a year. A gift from one noble to another is a prestigious piece of art and a significant gift.

In the ARP ruleset the certs come with a cost equal to a base uncommon Rune. Because ARP is built on a silver system instead of a gold system and it takes 100 silver coins to equal one gold one. The list price on Tukufu's cert for the Book of Tongues is 5gp. Which is also the cost of a base/uncommon rune. In 5E terms, for the purposes of a home campaign, you should similarly value them around the cost of a rune as a bench mark. That would be 1,000 gp.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:44 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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I would note though that there may be magic that could throw these calculation off. I would not surprise me at all if the Library of Atheria might have automatons or other magical means of making copies of books that would speed this up or otherwise make copying books easier. It would still take advanced magical/mechanical work and would still keep books very expensive, but it might speed up the production of certain volumes. Certainly books seem to be more prevalent in the Arcanis world than they were in the medieval world, so there should be some explanation for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:56 pm 
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I don't think existence of the printing press has been determined. If there is one, Altheria is the most likely place.

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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:41 pm 
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Magic is usually expensive. But you could be right.

Interestingly ARP’s Core Book lists two different costs for a Prayerbook. Written = 75sp (the same cost as a fairly substantial chain hauberk for armor). Altherian Press = 50 sp.

I had an discussion with Cody somewhere on the forums about books and printing and he was pretty firm that Henry has said there is no movable press (a la Gutenberg) in Arcanis at this time. That’s secondhand, but I generally trust Cody. If he says Henry said something then that’s probably true.

I bring it up because you “magical” coping idea made me think that maybe the Altherians do have processes that facilitate the creation of books. It’s hard to know what Altherian press means if it’s not movable type. One other possibility to get cheaper books is the knowledge of how to make paper from wood pulp (in the medieval world that pulp originally came from cloth rags). But a magical “golem driven” device might also be possible.

Since playing Tukufu I’ve read more on the topic. My ideas are influenced a lot by three books. The Brilliant History of Color, Bound in Venice, and the Map of Knowledge. All good reads for fans of History...

I think the Great Library of Altheria has to be thought of in similar contexts to the House of Wisdom or even the Great Library of Alexandria.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Last edited by val Holryn on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1433
Hello,

Southernskies wrote:
I don't think existence of the printing press has been determined.


Allow me to put this question to rest.

The printing press HAS NOT been invented on Arcanis.

The Altherians and others just use a lot of scribes (or magical means) to copy all those books/scrolls/tomes.

Stay safe everyone!

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 Post subject: Re: Children of The Sky Equipment Question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:47 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
Also, while moveable type in printing presses has not been invented, woodblock printing may be worth it for such common texts as the prayer books, and that might exist. Its not hard technologically, but it takes a huge up front investment to literally carve the page into a block of wood to then ink and press that - so I don't think it would be used for very many things, but might be useful for something that is going to be as common as a prayer book.

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