I'm not sure I'm good with a 'fixed' CTN bump. Assuming a 3 CTN / Tier from Tier I for most spells...

If you combine:

CTN 18 + CTN 18 (Tier 1's) = CTN 25 (Roughly Tier 3 casting difficulty)

CTN 21 + CTN 21 (Tier 2's) = CTN 30 (Roughly Tier 5 casting difficulty)

CTN 24 + CTN 24 (Tier 3's) = CTN 36 (Roughly Tier 7 casting difficulty)

As much as I hate to complicate things, I would think that an Advanced Spell of 2 Tier 1 spells should be about as difficult to cast as a Tier II spell.

so CTN 18 + 18 = 21-22

CTN 21 + CTN 21 = 24-25

CTN 24 + CTN 25 = 27-28

CTN 27 + CTN 27 = 30-31

CTN 30 + CTN 30 = 33-34

Maybe it's take the Highest CTN and add 3 (or 4)?

John

I have to say i think the math works better after looking at the examples if:

• CTN: Equal to the sum of both CTNs - 15.

~Tony

Still doesn't help combining 2 fast spells like 1 (6) and 1 (6) to become 6 (6).

John

I agree the CTNs work better with -15. With -12, I think it makes advanced spells too hard to cast.

As others have said, adapting a spell still leaves it as Base so it could still be combined into an Advanced spell. I don't see adapting a spell and making an advanced spell as an apples to apples comparison. I don't see anything wrong with -15 and highest speed+1 and highest strain+1 for advanced spells.

Having looked at the other suggestions, I'm all for a simple solution.

How about the same rules as Advanced Martial Techniques for speed and strain? The increased CTN is already a penalty and the big strain totals will penalise further. Also means players don't need to use two different advanced rules.

Lets use a common combo to test: Pound of Flesh + Elemental Bolt

Current Method: CTN 21, Spd 7, Strain 4
Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 21, Spd 6, Strain 5
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 24, Spd 6, Strain 4
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 21, Spd 5, Strain 7

That strain will be a big limiting factor (even with burning Fate Points).

As a bonus, oddball spells like Smite Heretic are much easier to calculate, and consistent with a couple of Martial Techniques that are strait add/subtract values.

I'm intrigued....

run a few more combo's Enemy/Ele Bolt and other popular combos

Base Spells: Enemy of my Enemy + Elemental Bolt
CTN: 21
Speed (Strain): 8 (6)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 21, Spd 7, Strain 6
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 24, Spd 7, Strain 6
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 21, Spd 5, Strain 9



Curse of the Brine Queen (Advanced) - by Eric Gorman
Category: Advanced
Base Spells: Black Tongue + Diminish Senses
CTN: 21
Speed (Strain): +7 (7)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 21, Spd 6, Strain 6
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 24, Spd 6, Strain 6
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 21, Spd 5, Strain 8
Note: The errata on dispelling via Mettle will make this less popular.


Telekinetic Scream (Advanced) - by Eric Gorman
Category: Advanced
Base Spells: Concussive Wave + Mental Scream
CTN: 21
Speed (Strain): +7 (4)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 21, Spd 6, Strain 6
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 24, Spd 6, Strain 4
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 21, Spd 5, Strain 6


Sarish’s Furnace (Advanced) - by Peter Teismann
Base Spells: Blood Boil + Heat Wave
CTN: 20
Speed (Strain): +6 (3)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 20, Spd 5, Strain 5
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 23, Spd 5, Strain 3
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 20, Spd 4, Strain 6


Sarish Binds You (Advanced) - by Peter Teismann
Sources: Elder, Eldritch, Sorcerer-Priests
Base Spells: Black Ice + Entangling Webs
CTN: 21
Speed (Strain): +7 (4)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 21, Spd 6, Strain 5
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 24, Spd 6, Strain 4
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 24, Spd 5, Strain 7


Doggerel of the Dizzying Strike (Advanced, Tier II) - by John Bellando
Sources: Eldritch
Base Spells: Far Strike + Disorient
CTN: 25
Speed (Strain): Weapon+5 (+7)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 25, Spd 6, Strain 6
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 28, Spd 6, Strain 6
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 25, Spd 5, Strain 7



Spell: Elemental Lightning Bolt (Advanced) - by John Bellando
Sources: Elder, Eldritch, Sorcerer-Priest
Base Spells: Arc of Lightning (30' Range Adaptation) + Elemental Bolt
CTN: 23
Speed (String): +6 (4)

Proposed Errata first draft: CTN 23, Spd 5, Strain 5
Proposed Errata Pedro Post: CTN 26, Spd 5, Strain 3
Adv Martial Technique method: CTN 23, Spd 4, Strain 6


Interestly, due to the base spells, ones that target avoidance about the same overall (trading speed for strain), but spells that target Fort or Disc have a much higher strain outcome with little difference in speed.

Just a thought... If you're making the assumption that making an advanced spell should increase the CTN, but the -15 or -12 "constants" seem inadequate to you, how about this...


CTN: Take the higher of the two CTNs, then add the other spell's Tier x 3 to that number.

This way, if the "second" spell in in advanced spell is tier 1, the other spell's CTN goes up by 3. If it's tier 2, then the other spell's CTN goes up by 6. etc. Now your advanced spell reflects the idea that it's more difficult to cast, but it's adjusted by tier, not by CTN.

(Just an idea. Mull it over.)

Scott

Issue: What about spells that are gotten at higher tiers in some traditions than others? For example: Inferno is a Tier III Primal Elemental Spell, and a Tier IV val'Virdan/Emman spell.

Looking up at the advanced spells, I'm left to wonder how the original edit I proposed was so bad.. in almost every case it lowered the speed of the original combined spell.

the only think it lacked was a slight increase in CTN (less then what I propose now)