Right. So with #1 is the intent that for things like heightened senses, alter appearance, etc that are Scene based in length that you can effectively max out the effect because law of averages would indicate a great die roll within a minute or 2? And that with healing regardless of whether it's stamina or wound damage, as long as you have a spell that can fix it regardles of the CTN, it should just be hand waved. If yes, then I've gotten my answer.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Not quite.

let me tackle that in a few.. need to do some thinking it over..

paul, yes on healing no on buffing.

you cast heighten senses as much as you want , and then before you need to make the roll, the scene changes, because that's the judges perogative.

Last time I checked, Scenes in mods are conveniently labeled Scene. Let me provide a practical example from a Crusade Hard Point.

Characters get boxed text at the beginning of the scene. This indicates that they see something WAY off in the distance. So far in fact that to interact with it will take hours of travel to get there. They easily have a few minutes or longer to recast the same spells over and over until they get exactly the CTN they want. Pick your favorite Scene length spells.

They decide they want to investigate, spend the hours to treck there and get more boxed text and an encounter within that scene. Those max buffs are still active. It's the same scene, but just an encounter within it.

I'm happy to provide the specific hard point and scene if desired, but would prefer not to do it here because of spoilers.

I originally expected that regardless of time within the scene you only got 1 casting of a Scene duration spell. Because of the fact that otherwise the TNs are meaningless outside of combat. For consistency sake, these Scene duration spells should be allowed to be cast as frequently as desired. Just as you mentioned with healing. If there's supposed to be a difference then there should be clear errata to that effect. At a minimum it should be an FAQ as it certainly doesn't sound like there's agreement on how non-binding spells should be handled in these cases.

I hope providing the example makes this clear enough to follow. I haven't felt that I've effectively described the situation. I'm fairly clear on the difference between scene and encounter. If not, the we definitely need a sidebar to help GMs parse scenes within a defined mod scene.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I think you and I have a different fundamental understanding of the judges role.

I see the judge as someone who's responsibility to keep the balance between the rules and the players and keep the story of the mod going as best as possible.
(and there are lots and lots of tools to adjudicate those interactions)

I feel that your coming from this as the players Vs the mod and the rules adjudicate between the two.

No module is going to be able to account for all of the players actions, they probably shouldn't even try to, the judge is there to keep things in balance and keep the game fun for everybody (including themselves)

I agree with that sentiment in general.



I'm trying to look at it from both a players and GM's perspective. In a home campaign where there's a single GM and a general agreement on structure, approach and balance it's a lot easier to reach that balance.

When you have hundreds of people operating in a shared campaign with different GMs who have different styles and interpretations, it's helpful to provide guidelines for what to expect on both sides of the table. While not a perfect analogy if I tell you something's you think it's going to cost them $10 and it costs them $20 they're likely irritated. If you tell them you think it'll cost them $40 and it costs them $20, they're exceptionally happy. The real cost or balance of rules and GM interpretation hasn't or doesn't need to shift. Moderating expectations is the better plan.

You yourself have said that you will always play a character who's a caster. Given how flexible the rules are casters seem to be quite common. As it stands there are currently 4 different rules at a minimum in terms of how spells work outside of combat.

1. Binding spells you can try once per scene, try more than that and it's a Fate point. Explicit and clear and explained for game balance. Ok.
2. Assuming there's some reasonable availability of healing, everyone gets healed between combats. Wounds maybe being the sticking point if you don't have any way of dealing with it. Ok. The safest explanation / rationale for this is that the healing takes place within the same encounter of the same scene in which the damage was inflicted. Hence it avoids scene change conflicts etc.
3. Buff spells prior to a scene's start are only permitted when the GM thinks it makes sense or explicitly accounted for in the mod.
4. Buff spells in the mod may or may not be allowed to be cast once or more than once depending on the GM, but with no apparent other guiding factor or guideline. Ok...

Should that necessarily be an issue? Probably not. It makes it less clear for player and can make the GM's life a bit more difficult with players arguing with why not. There's also obviously wide range of interpretations of rules see the previous thread on "Doing the Impossible" with Fate.

If the goal is a reasonable consistent experience then arguably there should be a reasonably consistent guideline. Even if that's just an FAQ entry saying that effectively any buffing done outside of combat is left to the GM's discretion.

I tend to break things down and analyze. It's just the way I think. I have been told it's a detriment in acting and arguably by extension characterizations and GMing. I understand my limitations and hope I do a reasonable enough job despite them. In general I would rather have a common baseline. I will live without it as needed.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I would have to agree with Paul. It's not a question of players versus judges perspective. In this case, with such a possibly important element, clarity is what is needed. In the case of the situation, just presented, I would say that the spells could be cast after the box text and would last through the combat, that's all one scene. I would also say that anyone who had spells up improving perception would not get to use them to see the smoke if a roll was called for since that was out of scene. But those are just my interpretations and I have seen many different ones.

There are lot's of variables here, and many different judging (and mod writing for that matter) styles, and they all handle scenes differently. What is needed is some clarification and consistency so that the spell don't change dramatically based on the judge.

I personally am not as concerned with what the ruling should be, only that there be one so that players and judges know what to expect and can make informed choices.

Yours in Gaming
David Bauder - Harbinger of Chicago

Thinking it over last night I have come to a conclusion of sourts

I'm going to add a side bar on scenes in the FAQ section

AND we are going to have to come up with a modified "casting out of scenes" rule for the shared campaign. Chances are in "none-stressful situations casting will default to the casters passive Arcanim plus any talent based skill bonuses/modifiers they may have." or some such (maybe once successfully cast a spell with Scene Duration can only have it's duration extended, but it's effects can not be improved upon, even if unraveled."

Still doing some thinking and re-thinking... but starting to lean the above direction

Pedro,

I look forward to your sidebar as apparently I'm one of those who just doesn't grasp your definition of scene. Sorry for being dense. Might I suggest the following as perhaps a rough base for the Q&A?

Question: How many times can I cast a scene duration spell when out of combat, i.e. the clock isn't being used?
Answer: Typically you'll be permitted a single roll. If it fails you may cast the spell using just your passive Arcanum value modified by any applicable talents including things Spell Affinity if it would apply. You may also apply talents that give you a bonus to a roll such as Prodigy or Metaphysical understanding if they would apply. The reason for the limit is to help preserve game balance. Depending on the circumstances the GM may adjust as they see fit.

As an FAQ it's not a hard rule to be applied to the rule book. I think the guidance above helps clarify the baseline while reminding players that the GM is free to adjust as necessary. The mechanic is similar to binding spells, but because the benefit of casting the spell then is questionable and certainly won't last the whole mod, there's a mechanic other than a fate point for after the re-roll.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

To add a little quirk to the mix, if you are casting out of scene, or even in a low pressure point in a scene (traveling the hour to an encounter, say) how does, "Focused on the task at hand" (pg 136) apply to spell casting? It is a skill role and if it can ever be applied to spell casting it should apply at those times. (And by the rules it seems like it could be applied to spell casting) That would seem to increase the average roll on a spell outside of combat.

I do not think that spellcasting outside of combat should default to the passive value of the caster for this reason and because other bonus's (prodigy, runes, etc) don't effect your passive value. I could easily see saying you can cast spells outside of combat at your passive +3 or something of that nature, to reflect these other effects on your average casting role, however.