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Advanced Spells (one topic)
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=1066		 Page 3 of 5
Author:  Davebauder [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
Harliquinn wrote:
This was proposed by Pedro in another post.

The issue with that at the time was it scaled *way* up with Tier. 2 Tier III spells would be CTN 36 and 2 Tier IV spells would be 42.

John


Actually, your numbers are a bit off. Tier 3 are generally 21-23. Taking two 23's, that would be a CTN of 34, 32 with the talent revision. And that is at the high end of doable at T3. Totally doable at T4. And that's if you choos two of the most difficult T3 spells. There are other T3 spells to choose that would make it much easier. Also remember, you don't have to have two spells of the same tier. Choose a T3 and a T1 and now it's still REAL powerful, but now most folks can do it.

For T4 spells, again they are generally 24-26. Taking two 23's, that would be a CTN of 04, 38 with the talent revision. And that is at the high end of doable at T4. Totally doable at T5. Same goes for adding on lower tier spells.

Yes, combining the the most powerful of all magics should be VERY hard, but still possible. At the high end only a master should be able to do it, but if you can do it, the rewards are amazing. Also, keep in mind that there are a very limited number ho high tier Base spells to work with. You can't use any other type of spell. There are only 14 base T4 spells that Arcanists could access in the two core books,A third to a half of those are diety spicific heritage Psionic spells. For combining two tier 4 spells, there is not a lot to work with. About the best you are looking as is a psionic Crushing Blow Inferno, which is only a 22+24. 46-12 is 34. Where you are looking at high numbers is when you start throwing adaptations on lower tier spells, and those should be really darn hard.

If you look at what you can do, and when, this ends up being a good balance of difficulty, staying true to the current system, putting the difficulty in the ballpark of where Pedro wanted it and staying true to the spirit of the game.
Author:  SamhainIA [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
Davebauder wrote:
OK, I'm going to try something revolutionary. First off, no math. I can do the math later if people are confused, but I will trust in the intelligence of the people in this discussion, so stick with just numbers. Here is a simple, elegant solution that
A. Makes all advanced spells more difficult to cast than they are now.
B. Scales.
C. Keeps high tier spells from being easier to cast which I think is generally agreed a way to make magic get more out of control than it is.
D. Easy to understand.
E. NOT a change to the base system of creating advanced spells like the current proposed change is.
F. A very minor change.

The proposed change would be simply this.

Errata - Arcanis Core Rulebook, page 346. Change the second bullet point under advanced spells to "CTN: Equal to the sum of both CTNs - 12."

That's it. There are very fer advanced spells you can do with CTN 17 spells, so you end up getting starting advanced spells at 24 CTN's. Even if you had a spell with two 17 CTN's (22 total CTN for the advanced spell) that would still be out of the rage of any 1.0 tier starting character to do with passive casting, and even a characters that fully devoted themselves to their casting skill would just be able to do that at tier 1. (you could do a 2 CTN 18 spell if you took spell affinity with that advanced spell)

Mind you, if you think this is too much, this is just slightly easier that the +6 proposal. (by 1 CTN for two CTN 17 spells) It makes advanced spells possible, but the province of casting specialists. It fits in the system, is in the range Pedro was looking for, and it's an easy change. No wheels need to get reinvented.

Hope you like it.



this looks remarkably like something I initially proposed, but i would like to applaud your actions of defining the ideas behind it first

I like this
Author:  Hat [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
I think the two CTNs - 12 does seem like a good approach for the various reasons outlined.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
Hat wrote:
I think the two CTNs - 12 does seem like a good approach for the various reasons outlined.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


It's a good approach, but does make Tier IV spells very difficult to make into Advanced Spells until Tier V (CTN's around 39-40). If that's cool with everyone, I support it also. It's fair at low levels, which seems to be what everyone is looking for, and maintains Pedro's desire for it to be equal to 2 Adaptations.

The funny thing is, that it is more difficult than method of Highest CTN + 6 at Tier II/Tier III, but this offers exact spell tracking, so if you cast spells with different CTN's you'll get a different Advanced CTN specific to those 2 spells and not a 'general guideline' by Tier.

Because I like my numbers, here are some examples (with Tier I = CTN 18 and +3/Tier)
* Note: I know spells vary in CTN, but this is just for comparison of an 'worst' case, individual spells will vary. Lower the CTN's by 1-2 to approximate CTN's of 18 + 2/Tier.

Code:
Tier / Tier = CTN-12 Method / CTN +6 / Current
1 / 1 = CTN 24 / 24 / 21
1 / 2 = CTN 27 / 27 / 24
2 / 2 = CTN 30 / 27 / 27
1 / 3 = CTN 30 / 30 / 27
2 / 3 = CTN 33 / 30 / 30
3 / 3 = CTN 36 / 30 / 33
1 / 4 = CTN 33 / 33 / 30
2 / 4 = CTN 36 / 33 / 33
3 / 4 = CTN 39 / 33 / 36
4 / 4 = CTN 42 / 33 / 39



John
Author:  Nierite [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
Harliquinn wrote:
but does make Tier IV spells very difficult to make into Advanced Spells until Tier V (CTN's around 39-40).


You say that like it is a bad thing, which it most certainly is not.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
Nierite wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
but does make Tier IV spells very difficult to make into Advanced Spells until Tier V (CTN's around 39-40).


You say that like it is a bad thing, which it most certainly is not.


Just stating a fact. Everyone was upset that Tier I Advanced spells were tough to do until late Tier I/Early Tier II. I just wonder if we'll be here again in Tier IV when folks want to immediately create Tier IV advanced spells?

John
Author:  Nierite [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
As a Divine Caster, I cannot comment too much about this. That said, they are ADVANCED spells, and therefore shouldn't be 'common' until characters are higher up. I think the minimum I would accept seeing them floating around (from a mechanical perspective) would be 1.7 for two T1 spells combined. Advanced spells, IMHO, should NOT be something anyone can do for shits and giggles. These should be things they have to work at.
Author:  PCI_StatMonkey [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
::Glances up and remembers posting the -12 calculation:::

::Squints:::

::Raps fingers on table::

I don't mind the fact that someone has to wait to Tier V before making an advanced spell with two T:IV spells at all..

btw, I was planing to introduce a new tier to Metaphysical Understanding :P
Author:  SamhainIA [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
I did say we were arguing in circles!

Yay for the merry go round... pedro do that make you drew carey then ?

Quote:
"the show where everything's made up and the points don't matter"
Author:  mighty28 [ Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
I have to say, I would be 1000% behind these two changes. It steers it back from a major rules change to a tweak. I just had a conversation with Dave. He said (and I need to confirm) that there are very few Tier 4 spells that could be actually combined together. If so, it makes that opposition a relatively minor inconvenience.
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