Actually, your numbers are a bit off. Tier 3 are generally 21-23. Taking two 23's, that would be a CTN of 34, 32 with the talent revision. And that is at the high end of doable at T3. Totally doable at T4. And that's if you choos two of the most difficult T3 spells. There are other T3 spells to choose that would make it much easier. Also remember, you don't have to have two spells of the same tier. Choose a T3 and a T1 and now it's still REAL powerful, but now most folks can do it.

For T4 spells, again they are generally 24-26. Taking two 23's, that would be a CTN of 04, 38 with the talent revision. And that is at the high end of doable at T4. Totally doable at T5. Same goes for adding on lower tier spells.

Yes, combining the the most powerful of all magics should be VERY hard, but still possible. At the high end only a master should be able to do it, but if you can do it, the rewards are amazing. Also, keep in mind that there are a very limited number ho high tier Base spells to work with. You can't use any other type of spell. There are only 14 base T4 spells that Arcanists could access in the two core books,A third to a half of those are diety spicific heritage Psionic spells. For combining two tier 4 spells, there is not a lot to work with. About the best you are looking as is a psionic Crushing Blow Inferno, which is only a 22+24. 46-12 is 34. Where you are looking at high numbers is when you start throwing adaptations on lower tier spells, and those should be really darn hard.

If you look at what you can do, and when, this ends up being a good balance of difficulty, staying true to the current system, putting the difficulty in the ballpark of where Pedro wanted it and staying true to the spirit of the game.

this looks remarkably like something I initially proposed, but i would like to applaud your actions of defining the ideas behind it first

I like this

I think the two CTNs - 12 does seem like a good approach for the various reasons outlined.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

It's a good approach, but does make Tier IV spells very difficult to make into Advanced Spells until Tier V (CTN's around 39-40). If that's cool with everyone, I support it also. It's fair at low levels, which seems to be what everyone is looking for, and maintains Pedro's desire for it to be equal to 2 Adaptations.

The funny thing is, that it is more difficult than method of Highest CTN + 6 at Tier II/Tier III, but this offers exact spell tracking, so if you cast spells with different CTN's you'll get a different Advanced CTN specific to those 2 spells and not a 'general guideline' by Tier.

Because I like my numbers, here are some examples (with Tier I = CTN 18 and +3/Tier)
* Note: I know spells vary in CTN, but this is just for comparison of an 'worst' case, individual spells will vary. Lower the CTN's by 1-2 to approximate CTN's of 18 + 2/Tier.




John

You say that like it is a bad thing, which it most certainly is not.

Just stating a fact. Everyone was upset that Tier I Advanced spells were tough to do until late Tier I/Early Tier II. I just wonder if we'll be here again in Tier IV when folks want to immediately create Tier IV advanced spells?

John

As a Divine Caster, I cannot comment too much about this. That said, they are ADVANCED spells, and therefore shouldn't be 'common' until characters are higher up. I think the minimum I would accept seeing them floating around (from a mechanical perspective) would be 1.7 for two T1 spells combined. Advanced spells, IMHO, should NOT be something anyone can do for shits and giggles. These should be things they have to work at.

::Glances up and remembers posting the -12 calculation:::

::Squints:::

::Raps fingers on table::

I don't mind the fact that someone has to wait to Tier V before making an advanced spell with two T:IV spells at all..

btw, I was planing to introduce a new tier to Metaphysical Understanding

I did say we were arguing in circles!

Yay for the merry go round... pedro do that make you drew carey then ?

I have to say, I would be 1000% behind these two changes. It steers it back from a major rules change to a tweak. I just had a conversation with Dave. He said (and I need to confirm) that there are very few Tier 4 spells that could be actually combined together. If so, it makes that opposition a relatively minor inconvenience.