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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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Location: Cajun Country
Well the trick is balancing them so they are powerful and useful enough to be worth doing, but hard enough that they aren't the default answer. I think any combined advanced spell, which is what these rules should pertain to, should require a roll to succeed. Which also means it is going to fall under 50% chance at success on average. I think the best way to handle this is to keep the CTN somewhat high but have more opportunity to have a bonus to the roll, like allowing more talents to stack and some to add to just advanced spells. Even spells to allow for easier casting of advanced spells, maybe one that lets you roll your primary twice and take the better of the two.


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:37 pm 
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You are correct that a 1.1 caster with +3 to Arcanum (let's say +4 because of Prodigy) can't autocast a CTN 21. In fact, assuming a 2d10+1d8+4, that is an average roll of 19.5. This means that at a CTN 21 there is a bit less than a 50% chance that they can make that roll right off the bat, which seems WAY to high for something that should require experience to do. Conversely, by the end of Tier I the caster most likely will roll 2d10+1d10+7 on their roll, which averages 23.5. In keeping with my "Advanced Spells should be a Late-Tier ability that I champion, I think the number should be CTN 24. This keeps it within reach of a 1.1 (I've made more than a few CTN 24's in the early game), but isn't something they get automatically or with minimal effort. Let's face it, CTN 21 is just too low from a 'continuing game' perspective, and it means starting about 1.3 (hell, 1.2 people with Metaphysical Understanding) people will be able to autocast it. Being able to front-load cool stuff on 1st Level Characters (to use the more common analogy) gives nothing to build towards, and makes the 'later game' a lot less special. I am a huge proponent for every boost to give something new, or have the potential to give something new.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
I think pedro posted definitively that this idea os low tier one casters being good at this is not in the plans

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:55 pm
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Location: Chicago Suburbs
PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
guys,

out of the box casters should NOT be able to cast advanced spells willy nilly...

it should be something you work toward.


Pedro, nothing is being said about willy, nilly. Tier 1.1 casters would not be about to cast an advanced spell with passive unless they had both Metaphysical Understanding and Spell Affinity in one of the base spells, a primary casting stat of 8 or better, very limited choice of backgrounds, and would would have to be human, val or gnome. This is the same as people casting spells with 2 adaptions, and that is the bar you first set.

But, if you want to delay it, there is a way. (a couple actually) And thinking about it gave me a great idea. My favorite would be to make Metaphysical Understanding tiered, where the amount you reduce the final CTN to cast the spell and the bonus when attempting to counter or dismiss an Advanced spell is equal to the Tier of the talent.

This would make Advanced spells virtually impossible to cast at tier 1.1 and hard to cast till you got to your mid to high tier ranks. of tier 1. It grows and can continue to be an arcane character focus.

with ever increasing options,

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
Davebauder wrote:
Pedro, nothing is being said about willy, nilly. Tier 1.1 casters would not be about to cast an advanced spell with passive unless they had both Metaphysical Understanding and Spell Affinity in one of the base spells, a primary casting stat of 8 or better, very limited choice of backgrounds, and would would have to be human, val or gnome. This is the same as people casting spells with 2 adaptions, and that is the bar you first set.

But, if you want to delay it, there is a way. (a couple actually) And thinking about it gave me a great idea. My favorite would be to make Metaphysical Understanding tiered, where the amount you reduce the final CTN to cast the spell and the bonus when attempting to counter or dismiss an Advanced spell is equal to the Tier of the talent.

This would make Advanced spells virtually impossible to cast at tier 1.1 and hard to cast till you got to your mid to high tier ranks. of tier 1. It grows and can continue to be an arcane character focus.

with ever increasing options,


Spell Affinity has no effect on Advanced Spells (or Base spells) unless they are being cast with Adaptations and for it to affect Advanced Spells, you must have Spell Affinity with both base spells (something you can't do until Tier 2 since it is limited to once per tier).

I dislike making Metaphysical Understanding tiered in such a way. For one thing, you'd need to get tier 2 before even matching what it currently gives. For another, it would delay further when you can cast advanced spells (something I at least want to avoid).

I'm not thrilled with the sum-12 CTN and existing Metaphysical Understanding but at least it is a way to get the CTN to a reasonable (to me) level for T1+T1 (effectively CTN 22 in most cases).

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:26 am 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Spell Affinity has no effect on Advanced Spells (or Base spells) unless they are being cast with Adaptations and for it to affect Advanced Spells, you must have Spell Affinity with both base spells (something you can't do until Tier 2 since it is limited to once per tier).


You are absolutely right. Bad me for not reading more carefully. Thank you.

wilcoxon wrote:
I dislike making Metaphysical Understanding tiered in such a way. For one thing, you'd need to get tier 2 before even matching what it currently gives. For another, it would delay further when you can cast advanced spells (something I at least want to avoid).

I'm not thrilled with the sum-12 CTN and existing Metaphysical Understanding but at least it is a way to get the CTN to a reasonable (to me) level for T1+T1 (effectively CTN 22 in most cases).


In that, in general, not true. Since right now, Metaphysical Understanding give a bonus to casting, and most serious caster who do this will have prodigy, the two don't stack, so you would end up getting a +1 to cast, +2 if not a prodigy. The proposed change would effectively give a +1 to cast actively which would stack and give a +1 to cast passively. A prodigy with this talent would have the same effective bonus to cast actively and a +1 to passive casting.


As to the level of difficulty, that is pretty much being driven by Pedro. (though I personally feel that we are at the ballpark of reasonable, and yes I do play an arcane caster.)

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:43 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
Davebauder wrote:
In that, in general, not true. Since right now, Metaphysical Understanding give a bonus to casting, and most serious caster who do this will have prodigy, the two don't stack, so you would end up getting a +1 to cast, +2 if not a prodigy. The proposed change would effectively give a +1 to cast actively which would stack and give a +1 to cast passively. A prodigy with this talent would have the same effective bonus to cast actively and a +1 to passive casting.

As to the level of difficulty, that is pretty much being driven by Pedro. (though I personally feel that we are at the ballpark of reasonable, and yes I do play an arcane caster.)


That's a good point. I don't suppose we can have Metaphysical Understanding changed to stack with other talents? As it is, if you have Prodigy, it's an extremely marginal talent.

Even with d10 Primary, 4 ranks, prodigy, and metaphysical understanding, you only get passive 19-20 (depending on if Primary is 7 or 8) and roll of 3d10+7 for advanced spells (assuming they stack) which averages 23.5 (so <50% chance for T1+T1 with no adaptations). That seems perfectly reasonable to me for uber-min-maxing casting of advanced spells (at least 12 stat pts on Primary, race+background chosen specifically for casting, and 2 talents).

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:44 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
SamhainIA wrote:
I think pedro posted definitively that this idea os low tier one casters being good at this is not in the plans


Nobody is saying "good". We're (or at least I'm) just saying reasonably possible. <50% chance is not good.

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Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:09 am 
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Just now getting caught up to Errata. Has there been a final ruling on how to create Advanced Spells? Specifically, I am interested in spells with different effects. Examples:

Storm of Knives + Mind Lock
Elemental Bolt + Brittle Bones

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Spells (one topic)
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:10 am 
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dragonwarriorfan wrote:
Just now getting caught up to Errata. Has there been a final ruling on how to create Advanced Spells? Specifically, I am interested in spells with different effects. Examples:

Storm of Knives + Mind Lock
Elemental Bolt + Brittle Bones


Right now in the "Being reviewed" version, you need to share the same duration (Instant, Scene, etc) to combine spells.

John

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