I think Damage effects should follow the general attribute die exploding rule (pg 90 errata) rather than converting Primary+Primary into Primary+2. This is the only place in the rules that such a conversion occurs. Especially with the new CTN+6, I don't think the increase in damage of using Primary instead of +2 is broken.

The CTN's were chosen so that an Advanced Spell's effects were on par with 2 Adaptations.

Taking straight damage as an example using Elemental Bolt / Arc Lightning from before:

Elemental Bolt
Base: CTN 18, Spd: 4 (+2) does Damage: d6 (Primary)
Adaptation 1xDamage: CTN 21, Spd: 4 (+3) does Damage: d8 (Primary)
Adaptation: 2xDamage: CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+5) does Damage d10 (Primary)

Current Errata:
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (melee) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+6) does Damage 2d6 (Primary) +2
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (ranged) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+7) does Damage 2d6 (Primary) +2

Your Proposed Change:
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (melee) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+6) does Damage 2d6 (Primary)(Primary)
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (ranged) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+7) does Damage 2d6 (Primary)(Primary)

So adding the Damage Adaptation twice gets you d10 (Primary): Average of 11.5
Current Errata: Advanced (ranged) gets you 2d6 (Primary) +2: Average of 15 for 2 more Strain and same CTN.
Your Proposed Change: Advanced (ranged) gets you 2d6 (Primary)(Primary): Average of 18 for 2 more Strain and same CTN.

In this case, the 18 damage average for 2 more strain is a no-brainer compared to the Base Spell + Adaptations. With 15 vs 11.5 it's still leaning towards the Advanced Spell since you're guaranteed that +2 damage without a roll.

----

I agree, it's a weird way to do the rule, but there's 3 things trying to get balanced:
1/2) CTN's of Advanced Spells and CTN's of Base + Adaptations should be comparable so that both are still valid choices
3) Maintaining consistency in the rules as much as possible regarding Exploding Attribute Dice

Without an overhaul of Adaptation CTN's/Speed/Strain costs alongside the expected Advanced Spell results, it's going to be hard to fit a solution that's perfect.

John

I don't have an opinion about the damage calulations/adjustments. Trying to wrap my brain around some of the differences hurts too much right now.

The one thing that did spring out to me about the flat +6 to CTN for an advanced spell was that it discourages advancement of low tier spells in many cases, by now making it easier to combine two high tier spells. Previously, combining some low tier spells to higher tier spells was worth doing, because in some cases (claws of the beast, say) it only added 1 to the CTN. But now you can combine a much higher tier spell in its place for essentially the same cost.

Also, it makes some spells that are meant to be combined (body of the warrior and shapechange) much more difficult to do, whereas before it was virtually a given that as soon as you could cast shapechange, you could combine it with Body of the Warrior.

Perhaps the adjustment could be a tier x2 kind of adjustment, rather than flat? (note, this is entirely based on nondamage assessments, if this screws up the damage curve of spells than I assume we need to stay at a flat rate)

and hence the crux of the issue, shapechange was obsolete as soon as you got it.. becoming nothing more then an "add on" for Body of the Warrior.. now you have to "grow into" that combination.

I think that is likely to be the biggest problem with this change. What has been possible with Advanced Spells since the game was released (3 years ago) suddenly is no longer possible. This will likely not only apply to existing players - I expect some new players who read the rules in-depth to go "wait a minute - why was this possible for so long and suddenly we got "nerfed" so we can't anymore?".

Even without the increase in CTN, the new Advanced Spell errata makes them more limited than the existing rules (except Range which was simplified in a way that makes some spells have a larger range/area).

Even beyond the direct limitations of Advanced Spells, it is much simpler to lower the CTN of base spells via Spell Affinity (you must be at least T2 before it can be applied to a single Advanced Spell combination).

to be honest, ive given up on advanced spells, they have gone through so many changes that the original purpose for the changes has been so obscured, im not sure what we are even discussing anymore

I like most of the Advanced Spell errata.

I dislike the flat +6 CTN both because it makes combining a low CTN spell just as hard as combining a high CTN spell and because it is significantly harder than current (which may be a good thing balance wise but it is a significant change to make at this late stage).

I dislike the (Primary)x2 becomes Primary+2 for damage (thus becoming a special case and not following the new general rule on multiple attribute dice). On the other hand, (Primary)x2 does make damage-damage Advanced Spells higher damage than Adapted base spells.

Or the issue could be that by tier 3, Body of the warrior is starting to get obsolete, and it really makes it more useful being able to rap it into a binding to keep it around full time. Especially since a spell like shapechange doesn't provide natural armor or any means to bump the damage die of the natural attack option in the spell. So the only way to make the spell more "complete" is to merge it with Body of the Warrior. To bump the damage die now will require a +6 CTN to incorporate Body of the Warrior, and then +4 to die bump the damage - so +10 to bump the damage die.

I thought part of the value of the system was that low level spell remain useful becuase they can be incorporated easily with higher tier spells (or each other) due to their low CTN. Now that isn't the case. Much less scalability to the lower tier spells with the new system.

As an alternative you could simply set the base CTN for spell combinations as a flat chart rather that calculating it. It's only 10 entries.

1x1
1x2
1x3
1x4
2x2
2x3
2x4
3x3
3x4
4x4

This way you can set what you feel is an appropriate CTN for low and high level spells.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I'm confused why there is such frustration with the proposed errata. I get the whole (Primary)x2 becoming (Primary)+2 is a touchy subject and there's probably a way to do it similar to maneuvers (Pick one to explode) that still maintains balance.

I'm not sure why the +6 CTN is such a sticking point. Sure it means combining a Tier IV with a Tier I is the same as a Tier IV with a Tier IV, but you're basing the advanced spell on the highest tier spell. So in effect you can combine a Tier IV with almost anything else with equal ease.

The way Arcanis is designed is that Tier I spells don't become useless as you go up in Tiers, that's why there are Adaptations. You don't have to learn a new 'elemental damage' spell at tier III, you just adapt Elemental Bolt much easier to affect multiple targets and higher damage. This also means you can combine an Adapted Tier I spell with a Tier IV spell without increasing the CTN unnecessarily.

This has a 'down side' in that you can no longer 'auto cast' Tier I advanced spells at the start of your character's life. However, you can't reliably cast Adaptations either, so I don't understand where the big difference is in peoples' minds?

The new Advanced Spells actually feel a lot more like a 'new, unique' spell rather than just casting 2 separate spells faster. You can combine almost any areas now, which opens up a lot of new possibilities. You do need to beat both defenses just as in maneuvers.

The new changes give a natural progression (Assuming a d10 Casting Stat from 7-8, 3 Ranks Casting Skill to start and +3 Ranks / Tier)

Early Tier I (Passive Arcanum 18, +3 Skill)
- Tier I Base spells (CTN 18): Auto-Cast
- Tier I Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 21): Good chance (~50%)
- Tier I Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 24): Rare chance (~18%)
- Tier I + Tier I Advanced Spells (CTN: 24): Rare chance (~18%)

Late Tier I / Early Tier II (Passive Arcanum 21-22, +6 Skill)
- Tier I Base spells (CTN 18): Auto-Cast
- Tier I Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 21): Auto-Cast
- Tier I Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 24): Good chance (~45%)
- Tier I Advanced Spells (CTN: 24): Good chance (~45%)

- Tier II Base spells (CTN 21): Auto-Cast
- Tier II Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 24): Good chance (~45%)
- Tier II Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 27): Rare chance (~25%)
- Tier II Advanced Spells (CTN: 27): Rare chance (~25%)

Late Tier II / Early Tier III (Passive Arcanum 25, +9 Skill)
- Tier I Base spells - Tier I Advanced (CTN 18-24): Auto-Cast

- Tier II Base spells (CTN 21): Auto-Cast
- Tier II Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 24): Auto-Cast
- Tier II Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 27): Great chance (~70%)
- Tier II Advanced Spells (CTN: 27): Great chance (~70%)

- Tier III Base spells (CTN 24): Auto-Cast
- Tier III Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 27): Great Chance (~70%)
- Tier III Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 30): Fair chance (~22%)
- Tier III Advanced Spells (CTN: 30): Fair chance (~22%)

and so on...

taking paths which increase your casting stat or other ways to increase your rolls really helps here too and by Tier IV spells are avaiable, your chances of Advanced Spells goes up.

John