Highest CTN +6 is much too high at low tiers. Two Tier 1 spells combined into an advanced spell will have around a CTN 24 without any adaptations. Given a generous starting character, you get 3d10+4 for an average of 20.5 (more typical I think is 2d10+d8+3 which gives average 18.5). The odds of rolling this are pretty low. Even at 1.10, this is probably not automatic. A T2 spell, on the other hand, only has a CTN of 20-21.

If the intent of this is to significantly decrease the usage of advanced spells, this will surely do it.

Please go back to sum-15 or highest+3 for CTN (or some other calculation that works out lower than this at low tier).

The purpose of the CTN boost is to make an Advanced Spell abut as hard to cast as a Base Spell with 2 Adaptations. Adaptations on average are around +3 CTN and it takes at least 2 to bump damage dice to a level of advanced spells or to add additional targets, etc. Advanced Spells give significant benefits in terms of Damage (usually d6 + d6 + (Primary) and Stacking Effects and the CTN needs to reflect this so that Base Spells + Adaptations aren't that much less attractive. There was a whole discussion around not making it too easy to cast while not making it impossible as you level up. Have you read those to give you some background?

A cater *should* have to get above average to cast an Advanced Spell at the start of Tier 1 (Where you're rolling 3d10+4 but at the end of Tier I, you should be rolling 3d10+6 or +7 and therefore have a much better chance of succeeding. By the start of Tier 2, making Advanced Spells out of Tier I spells is going to be second nature and those at Tier 2 are going to take some work.

John

I did read that. I guess I just disagree with the premise. In my somewhat limited experience, base spells + adaptations are already not being ignored for advanced spells. To me, 2 adaptations is too high a penalty to pay for an advanced spell - the next higher tier spell seems much more appropriate (which is approximately what we got with sum-15 at low tiers). With CTN+6, I would expect the exact opposite case - most people will skip most advanced spells in favor of base spells with adaptations (unless they are trying to give an effect aoe by applying an adaptation from the other half of the advanced spell or something similar). If it is the intent to relegate advanced spells to only being useful for these types of combinations (at least at low tier) then CTN+6 works great (but it's too high if you want it to see more common usage).

Even if we're going for 2 adaptations, I'm not sure +6 is accurate - there are a lot of adaptations in the 0-2 range (and a few as high as 6).

I guess part of my issue is that advanced maneuvers are immediately useful and usable and now advanced spells are basically "don't think about it until well into tier 1".

2 Examples (Damage and Status)

Elemental Bolt
Base: CTN 18, Spd: 4 (+2) does Damage: d6 (Primary)
Adaptation 1xDamage: CTN 21, Spd: 4 (+3) does Damage: d8 (Primary)
Adaptation: 2xDamage: CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+5) does Damage d10 (Primary)
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (melee) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+6) does Damage 2d6 (Primary) +2
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (ranged) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+7) does Damage 2d6 (Primary) +2

So adding the Damage Adaptation twice gets you d10 (Primary): Average of 11
Advanced (ranged) gets you 2d6 (Primary) +2: Average of 14 for 2 more Strain and same CTN.

This is very comparable.

Black Tongue / Diminish Senses
Black Tongue - Base: CTN 18, Spd: 5 (+5) adds +6 CTN to target's spells
Diminish Senses - Base: CTN 18, Spd: 3 (+4) Blinds the target
Advanced: CTN 24, Spd: 5 (+8) to Blind the target and add +6 CTN to target's spells

If you cast those separately without spending fate, taking damage, or delaying strain, both effects take place on Tick 8, you act on Tick 13 and Strain is gone on Tick 18.
If you delay strain from first spell, both effects take place on Tick 4, you act on Tick 9, and Strain is gone on Tick 18.
If you cast the advanced spell, both effects take place on Tick 1, you act on Tick 6, and Strain is gone on Tick 14.

That's a savings of 3 Ticks for effects and 3 for Action and 4 for Strain. Very worth the increased CTN.

John

Okay. Those are a lot more comparable than I expected (I didn't have time last night to look up examples). I still very much dislike CTN+6 but only really have a few arguments left as to why:

• It is a huge increase from current (at least for T1+T1) making it pretty much impossible for starting characters to use them. To me, advanced spells should be usable and useful immediately (just like advanced maneuvers).
• Highest CTN +6 is it makes advanced spells of mixed tier very sub-optimal (advanced T4+T4 = same CTN as advanced T4+T1).

The big omission in the second example is that casting both individually is easy for a starting character (whereas the advanced spell requires a roll even for most 1.10 characters).

Another big limit with advanced spells is that if they target different defenses, you must beat both defenses or the spell fails.

Another limitation of advanced spells for damage is that the damage is less than casting separately (Primary vs only +2).

1) Maneuvers don't have adaptations. There's no way to boost a maneuver without making an advanced one so they are going to be easier. They also don't have the same range of status effects and debilitating results as spells. In addition, most weapon maneuvers and particularly advanced maneuvers have a little higher speed than spells. A speed 5 sword with mighty swing and Sweeping strike has a speed of 6 with recovery. One thing I do think is maneuvers which target multiple targets aren't as costly as they probably should be.
2) In the current method a Tier 1 (CTN 18) + Tier 4 (CTN 27) would be CTN 30. That wasn't high enough to keep the adaptations on the Tier 4 spell comparable. Tier 1 spells are still very worthwhile at Tier 4 since they don't often get a replacement and adding Elemental Bolt adapted 3 times (CTN 24) will add d10 damage to the spell with the same CTN.



A) Advanced spells should require a roll just as adaptations usually do. That's by design.

B) This is now in line with Maneuvers

C) But you are doing all the damage up front which could make the difference between killing the monster before I attacks or not.

The main thing is if there are decisions to make between casting two base spells automatically one after another, casting a base spell with adaptations, or casting an advanced spell with a chance of failure, then the system is balanced.

John

John,

Thank you...

I was demo'ing my brother in laws house yesterday...

you did an amazing job of covering all the points

As an aside.. a advanced spell SHOULD be hard for starting characters... its not easy to bend reality on the fly