Advanced Spells v2.1

Harliquinn · **Joined:** Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:40 am **Posts:** 2046

Then just make it "CTN equals the highest CTN + 6" Fixed.

PCI_StatMonkey · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:09 pm

Harliquinn wrote:

Then just make it "CTN equals the highest CTN + 6" Fixed.

Crushes Low tier + High tier spells..

SamhainIA · **Joined:** Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am **Posts:** 1554

DeadZone wrote:

Just a question for thought...

I saw a few posts where someone did the math on CTNs. Taking two T1 spells @ -15, then two T2 spells, then two T3 spells, etc. And they showed how it becomes very difficult to cast some of those further up the chain. Well... Just as a general guideline, it seems to me that casting an advanced spell which is comprised of two T1 spells should be roughly equivalent of a T2 spell. That's probably an acceptable idea to everyone.

What about an advanced spell comprised of two T2 spells? Should that be roughly equivalent to a T4 spell or a T3 spell?

What about one made up from a T2 and a T1 spell? Is this roughly equivalent to a T3 spell or is it little more difficult to cast than the T2 spell that made it up?

Lastly, I ask you how difficult should an advanced spell comprised of two T4 spells be? Conceptually, should it be roughly equivelant to a T5 spell or a T8 spell? (Or somewhere in between?)

That concept needs to be nailed down before the math can be made to work.

Scott

bump and bolded and underlined the most important point

wilcoxon · **Joined:** Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm **Posts:** 1037

Personally, I think 2 T1 spells should be roughly T2, 2 T2 spells should be roughly T3, 2 T3 spells should be roughly T4, and 2 T4 spells should be roughly T5. Extrapolating from that T4+T1 should be very slightly harder than a T4.

Personally, I think CTN 20-21 is just about perfect for an advanced spell consisting of 2 T1 spells. As someone else said, making it advanced does nothing to make adaptations easier and adaptations add up fast.

DeadZone · **Joined:** Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:01 am **Posts:** 327

Trying to understand the concept before the math...

PCI_StatMonkey wrote:

I think attempting to equate a custom advanced spell may be an issue

the combinations you can create never seem to take place in higher tier spells...

two Tier IV spells (TN: 26) in the current (-15) system would be 37 which is a bit high (with 31 being average for a Tier 4.5 hero... 2d10(d12)+15)

two Tier I spells (TN:18) end up being 21, which for a Tier 1.5 character is not all that hard (average roll on 3d10+6)

On average I would want to see an advanced spell be the equivalent of two adaptions when two spells of equal tier are added together...

emphasis mine.

PCI_StatMonkey wrote:

Harliquinn wrote:

Then just make it "CTN equals the highest CTN + 6" Fixed.

Crushes Low tier + High tier spells..

Okay...
So, we know two things. First, you're looking for "the equivalent of two adaptions". Define what an adaptation amounts to. From my experience, they run the gamut of values between no CTN and say, +6 CTN. This is an abstract target that changes too much. Second, if one static value makes the CTNs good for low tiers but bad for high tiers and a different static value makes the CTNs bad for low tiers but good for high tiers, then this means that you must have a curve in mind. We can't be talking about linear progression. And in order to find a formula that uses non-linear progression, you're probably looking at using exponents rather than addition or multiplication.

So, with that in mind, I suggest more clearly defining the target numbers for not only Tier X + Tier X advanced spells, but also for Tier X + Tier Y advanced spells. That will help to frame the problem, which will help define the solution.

Scott

PCI_StatMonkey · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:31 pm

right now you get more bang for your buck (CTN wise) by combining two Tier 1 spells for example.

players should look at casting a base spell with an adaptation as a viable choice, adding 1 adaptation +3 adaptation should be easier then casting a two Tier I spells as an advancement spell.

right now
Tier I spell (18) with one advancement is (21)
Advanced Tier I/Tier I (18+18-15) is (21) and far better then any advancement...

while the highest Tier +6 seems a solid quick fix, it bones high Tier/Low Tier combinations.

Hat · **Joined:** Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm **Posts:** 1353

Consider the effects of 2 tier 3 or 2 tier 4 spells being combined. What's the real power of that effect?

Compare that against melee and ranged equivalents plus whatever non-maneuver effects you feel would be in place with Talents and gear. Is whatever the difference is between the two the right amount?

If not adjust accordingly.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

PCI_StatMonkey · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:03 pm

Hat wrote:

Consider the effects of 2 tier 3 or 2 tier 4 spells being combined. What's the real power of that effect?

Compare that against melee and ranged equivalents plus whatever non-maneuver effects you feel would be in place with Talents and gear. Is whatever the difference is between the two the right amount?

Brain explodes....

Harliquinn · **Joined:** Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:40 am **Posts:** 2046

I'm not sure how the High Tier / Low Tier are boned?

Here's new Math with the Highest CTN + 6 (Which is about the equivalent of adding 2 Adaptations to a spell, which is what you said you wanted)

Assuming a Caster that has d10 casting die and +3 Casting Stat and adds +3 / Tier:
Tier I spell (CTN 18) + Tier I spell = CTN 24 (Avg Arcanum Result: 18-21)
- Compare with: 2 Tier I Adaptations: CTN 24

Tier I + Tier II spells (CTN 21) = CTN 27 (Avg Arcanum Result: 21-24)
- Compare with: 2 Tier II Adaptations: CTN 27

Tier I + Tier III spells (CTN 24) = CTN 30 (Avg Arcanum Result: 24-27)
- Compare with: 2 Tier III Adaptations: CTN 30

Tier I + Tier IV spells (CTN 27) = CTN 33 (Avg Arcanum Result: 27-30)
- Compare with: 2 Tier IV Adaptations: CTN 33

It's the equivalent each time to 2 "+3" Adaptations.

John

PCI_StatMonkey · **Posted:** Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:38 pm

fair enough...

changed to highest CTN +6

Advanced Spells v2.1

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