I have a question/thought/change to the way that Bloodline Talents work when they require an Action Skill Roll. Currently, they don't appear balanced across different Val families. For example:

val'Emman/val'Virden Tier V Bloodline: The Fires of Heaven
Once per day, you may call down the fires of heaven. Perform a Ranged (Thrown) or (Marksmanship) (Ch) Action Skill Roll against the Avoidance of all enemies within this power’s radius. You deal d12 (Ch) fire damage to any successfully hit.

val'Assante Tier II Bloodline: His Radiant Glory
Once per day, you may call upon your Bloodline to invoke the holy radiance of Illiir to scorch the unclean. Perform an Intimidate (Re) Action Skill Roll against the Discipline of all creatures within range. Living creatures that you affect suffer Push 4; Undead, Infernals, Silence Touched, or practitioners of the Dissolution Arcanum also suffer d8 (Ch) fire damage.

val'Inares Tier IV Bloodline: As We Suffer, So Shall They
Once per day , you may perform a Resolve Attribute Action Roll against your target’s Discipline. If successful, you heal all Stamina and Wounds and the damage is transferred to your opponent.

val'Ossan Tier II Bloodline: The Crushing Wave
Once per scene, you may call forth a powerful wave to strike and push back your enemies. This wave rushes out from your feet, attacking all creatures and objects within a 10’ radius. All creatures and objects that weigh less then 1000lb are moved to the outside of the radius.
Perform a Resolve Action Roll against the Fortitude of all creatures pushed by the use of this Talent; you gain a bonus to this roll equal to double your Bloodrank. If successful, not only are your targets pushed away from you, but they also suffer d8 (Re) Stamina damage.

val'Tensen Tier II Bloodline: Hurrian's Wrath
Once per scene, you may call down a bolt of lightning from the sky. Perform a Charisma Attribute Action Roll against your target’s Avoidance. If successful, you deal d10 (Ch)Stamina damage.

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I used the Val Bloodline Talents as examples, but checking through the Elorii Bloodlines also revealed some of the same differences in the way these types of talents require Action Rolls to be attempted, in terms of having or not having bonuses. There are three basic types of Action Rolls that these talents call for:

1) Using a Skill Action Roll [examples Melee (Any), Ranged (Thrown), Persuasion, Intimidation], allowing the talent holder to use the ranks in those skills in the attempt to hit/succeed at the use of the Bloodline Power.

2) Using an Attribute Action Roll (for example Might, Charisma, Resolve), allowing the user a bonus based upon their Blood Rank (examples I saw were 2x the user's Blood Rank) to attempt to hit/succeed at the use of a Bloodline Power.

3) Using an Attribute Action Roll without any bonuses to attempt to hit/succeed at the use of a Bloodline Power.

These various methods seem odd to me, as it benefits certain powers over others. Attempting to use a Bloodline talent at higher tiers, were it is a straight Attribute Action Roll without modifiers, seems to penalize or lessen the power of the bloodline talents for some Val Families or Elorii Bloodlines. These differences are not uniform in terms of the Tier Level of the powers, nor their affects at times, as there are talents asking for Skill rolls from Tier I to V, and Talents with straight Attribute rolls in the same range. To me, it just does not make sense.

Isn't there a better way to adjudicate the use of these talents, mechanics wise, to make them more balanced across different Bloodlines, Elorii and Val? Or at least boost the chances of those talents calling for a straight Attribute Roll to succeed and be balance? Getting a Bloodline Power at Tier IV and being asked to affect enemy defenses of that Tier with 2d10+ an attribute die is underpowered in my opinion, especially when other bloodline talents do not suffer the same difficult, and severely lessens desires to take such talents.

I'd purpose something simple, such as a user of a Bloodline talent requiring a straight Attribute roll to get a bonus based upon Bloodrank... my three initial thoughts are:

1) Talent Tier x the User's Bloodrank: This does increase the bonus to higher numbers at higher tiers, but many of the Bloodline abilities are limited to once/day, IIRC, and it provides a bonus to those users who choose to increase their blood rank and invest in the Val Bloodline Talent chains. For Elorii, it becomes more difficult since they do not have Bloodranks, but there must be a way to provide a bonus based upon the number of Talents they have taken.

2) A set number times the User's Bloodrank: This has been used for other Bloodline talents utilizing Bloodrank previously, typical 2x Bloodrank, but I think the bonus may fall off at higher tiers to the point its not keeping up with those talents using skill ranks in their rolls possibly.

3) Adding Skill Action Rolls to Talents without Them: A lot of work, but IDing and adding a Skill/Skills Action Rolls to those talents currently using Attribute Action Rolls to make the way the mechanics of these type of talents work more even/universal.

I'll state that I am affected by the current way some talents are written, but the difference has always been a lingering question in my mind, as it seemed to favor certain talents/bloodlines over others. And I prefer my first offered solution, because it makes Bloodrank matter for more talents overall, rather than the few it currently does, and rewards those that invest into these Bloodlines. Also, the Bloodlines requiring these rolls are typical once per day, so they should have impact, to keep them worth their value. (And yes, there are a ton of great Bloodline powers already, I know, but there are plenty that need some TLC, in my opinion.

Sorry for taking a while to post this recommendation/question - work's been crazy and I wanted to get my thoughts together. That said - thoughts, comments, etc?

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea, and while it might be difficult to implement will do wonders at making the various bloodline types of talents super relevant and balanced.

Astroliar, Thanks!

I've also (in a previous life/board) suggested for some things using, say, 3xTier. Keeps it in line with a primary skill.

ie: Tier IV = 2d10(Ch)+12.

3x Tier seems better than 2x Tier, for balance reasons, but as Josh mentioned, I like trying to reward those players/characters that invest into a Bloodline deeply, which is what I was trying to achieve with the first option. Yes, it may go above the average limit of 3, but with most bloodline powers requiring rolls being once a day, IIRC (not checked to deeply into them) and requiring talent slots to build up, I like having Blood Rank playing into the mechanics of the talents more and providing more than just a number - there are two few talents currently that tap into your score, imo. Some exist, but seeing it matter more would be awesome.

I have no stake in this match, but I think basing it on Blood Rank is a good idea. If it's purely based on Tier, then someone with little investment has the same chances as someone with a lot of investment.

John

What John said, especially with the current discussion on errata on how one can qualify for higher Tier talents in other threads - if errata went through, the people using the same talent but having different Bloodranks would be equally as powerful, and one character may have just two Tier I talents, were another may have the two Tier One talents and Tier Two talents (and a higher Bloodrank to boot).

Bloodranks + Tier?

ie: By tier V my Nierite will have BR 6, which means I'd have +11.

Alternatively, by Tier V my val'Abebi would have had BR 9, meaning +14.

Not a bad solution. I don't know the ranges of Blood Ranks to know what the max is?

There are 7 Bloodline Talents/Val Family, so the highest you can get is BR9 with Potent Blood. As such, the bonus would be +6 at Tier V for BR1 to +14 at Tier V for BR9.

Seems like a good swing of numbers representing your investment in bloodline talents. I give this method (Rank + Tier) a thumb's up.

Also the numbers seem comparable with a skill that' you've chosen to max out at about 2-3 Ranks / Tier.