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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1277
Ok, based on the feedback to date, I am switching Version 3 (fully tangible) up to the one in the write up and moving the current one down to now Version 3. I am certainly happy to have more discussion on it as it helps clarify how advanced spells work.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:55 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1277
Ok, given the updated FAQ / Errata doc, I've updated the spell accordingly. I'm not sure which of the 2 options makes the most sense, so am looking for additional opinions and ideally an official answer.

One thing I realized in updating the spell is that the Errata specifically talks about Restrictions and Limitations of either spell, carrying over to the other. Insubstantial for the GoL is part of the effect, not a restriction or limitation and it has both advantages and disadvantages for working that way. You can effectively test to see if someone is possessed or an affected creature in disguise as it will pass harmlessly through things not targeted by it's effects.

I'm ok with whichever ruling makes the most sense, just would like clarity.


Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
Tradition: Heritage (Val) [Tier I], Heritage (val'Borda) [Tier I]
Category: Advanced
CTN: 23
Speed (Strain): 2 (+5)
Range: Self
Duration: Scene

Option 1
Effect: With the completion of this spell you bring forth a fine quality stiletto of shadowy light, brightest at the tip of the blade and fading into a dark handle. It is a light, Speed 4 weapon dealing d6 (Primary) +1 damage. Against Undead, Spirits and Infernals, this weapon bypasses all AR. When used against Entropic creatures this weapon deals d8 (Primary) +1 damage and bypasses all AR.

The blade passes harmlessly through living beings and inanimate objects.

Special: If thrown or released the blade darkens and fades with no effect.

Special: The weapon has no real weight or balance, making it impossible to use any weapon tricks with this weapon.


Option 2
Effect: With the completion of this spell you bring forth a fine quality stiletto of solid shadowy light, brightest at the tip of the blade and fading into a dark handle. It is a light, Speed 4 weapon dealing d6 (Primary) damage. Against Undead, Spirits and Infernals, this weapon bypasses all AR. When used against Entropic creatures this weapon deals d8 (Primary) damage and bypasses all AR.

Special: If thrown or released the blade darkens into a standard shadow dagger, losing the brilliance that provides additional benefit against Undead, Spirits, Infernals and Entropic creatures.


Common
Special: If the caster has the Adaptation: Shadow Weapons (Ta) they may use it normally with this spell expanding the weapon choices to include gladius, short sword and side sword. While they could manifest a short bow as well, the arrows would fade as soon as the spell is cast, rendering it useless and as the weapon is insubstantial, normal arrows could not be used.

Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 5 to add your passive Resolve Modifier to all damage rolls.

Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 3 to summon a second Dark Blade of Illir to wield in your off-hand.

Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 3 and Strain by 1 to apply a Die Bump to the damage die. This Adaptation may be applied multiple times.

Adaptation: Increase the Strain by 1 to increase the number of Dark Blades manifested. Any not in hand darkens into a standard shadow dagger, losing the brilliance that provides additional benefit against Undead, Spirits, Infernals and Entropic creatures.

Adaptation: Increase the CTN 3 to apply one of the following Fine Runes: Frost, Shadow, or Celerity. This Adaptation may be applied multiple times, adding a different Rune each time.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Option 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:15 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Michigan
It doesn't seem to me that it would be either. According to the FAQ/Errata:

Quote:
Combining Damage Effects: When combining damaging spells, all damage is considered to be from the same source with the spells’ damage being affected by AR if either of the base spells are reduced by AR. Regardless of the combined effects, when combining two damaging spells which deal (Primary) damage, you only roll one (Primary) but gain a +2 bonus to your damage roll


So you should be adding the damages caused by the spell together to be d4+(mi)+d6 + (primary) damage. With the limitation from GoL that the weapon can only effects the limited number of creatures, and the limitations from manipulate shadow that it does not bypass AR. It makes it strange that it is both insubstantial and effected by AR, but that is what the rules say. I would say that the big advantage is that against things like spirits there would still be full damage even though they are incorporeal, but AR would apply from everything else.

Also, I suspect that

Quote:
Adaptation: Increase the Strain by 1 to increase the number of Dark Blades manifested. Any not in hand darkens into a standard shadow dagger, losing the brilliance that provides additional benefit against Undead, Spirits, Infernals and Entropic creatures.


doesn't work, since I think it would be governed by the limitation of having to be in hand just like the arrows do, so instead of becoming a dark blade upon not being in hand, I think it would just disappear, like GoL does. I don't think there is any way to make it become substantial after it starts as insubstantial

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Revised Option 1 matches my understanding of combining spells based on feedback from other experienced players. I may not like having to take the greatest restriction as applying to the entire advanced spell, but I accept it.

Nice combo, BTW.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
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Given that option 1 is essentially only adding a Fine quality to a Gladius of Light, I will go with Option 2. It bypasses the AR of the specified creatures and gets the bump vs. Entropics. Otherwise it is a Speed 4 Fine dagger that loses the Gladius of Light effect if thrown/disarmed.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:29 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
mighty28 wrote:
Given that option 1 is essentially only adding a Fine quality to a Gladius of Light, I will go with Option 2. It bypasses the AR of the specified creatures and gets the bump vs. Entropics. Otherwise it is a Speed 4 Fine dagger that loses the Gladius of Light effect if thrown/disarmed.



Matt, can you clarify this a little more? Why doesn't it combine the damage of the dagger [d4+(mi)] and the GoL [d6+(Pr)] like most spells combine damage into a d4+(Mi)+d6+(Pr) damage for the weapon?

Then, are you're saying the GoL is an exception to the rule of combined spells applying AR if either spell allows it? It seems like you are. It seems like the increased damage from the dagger (average 7 with a 5 might) compensates for spell no longer getting through AR.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:43 am 
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At least to the weapon damage, you are still using a single weapon and not two, so there would only be one weapon die.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:57 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1277
toodeep wrote:
mighty28 wrote:
Given that option 1 is essentially only adding a Fine quality to a Gladius of Light, I will go with Option 2. It bypasses the AR of the specified creatures and gets the bump vs. Entropics. Otherwise it is a Speed 4 Fine dagger that loses the Gladius of Light effect if thrown/disarmed.



Matt, can you clarify this a little more? Why doesn't it combine the damage of the dagger [d4+(mi)] and the GoL [d6+(Pr)] like most spells combine damage into a d4+(Mi)+d6+(Pr) damage for the weapon?

Then, are you're saying the GoL is an exception to the rule of combined spells applying AR if either spell allows it? It seems like you are. It seems like the increased damage from the dagger (average 7 with a 5 might) compensates for spell no longer getting through AR.


The spell creates weapons, not an energy damaging effect. As such combining spell damage doesn't make sense in the same way that combining something like mental scream and telekinetic bolt would.

I don't understand exactly what you're asking about bypassing AR. The only time the damage bypasses the AR is against the specific limited set of targets proscribed by the GoL spell. AR is still in full effect vs all other targets.

Rules should be applied using common sense.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Blade of Illir (Twilight's Knife)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:33 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
Hat wrote:
The spell creates weapons, not an energy damaging effect. As such combining spell damage doesn't make sense in the same way that combining something like mental scream and telekinetic bolt would.

I don't understand exactly what you're asking about bypassing AR. The only time the damage bypasses the AR is against the specific limited set of targets proscribed by the GoL spell. AR is still in full effect vs all other targets.

Rules should be applied using common sense.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


It creates a weapon fused from two different magic sources, there is absolutely no reason why they can't both do damage. That's like saying that if you fuse two elemental fire spells together you should only use the damage from one, because its all just fire. when you combine two spells, there damage combines. That makes plenty of sense, and you can make plenty of arguments for the magical weapon you make from the combined spell being more deadly than either base weapon would have been.

I agree with you a little on the AR question, because as the rules are written right now, the blade is insubstantial and only effects the specific target creatures (since that is a restriction of the GoL spell), but the combined spell would still allow AR (since the manipulate shadow allowed AR, and if one does the combined spell must). Logically that doesn't make much sense, either it is solid and can effect everything or it is just composed of light and it should ignore AR, but that is the rules as currently written, and unless Matt specifically addresses it I think that's how it should be run.

If I had the option to create this spell to "make sense" I would say that it makes a solid dagger with a nimbus of light around it. The dagger would do the normal manipulate shadow weapon damage to any of the non-special creatures (since the nimbus would have no effect) while the "special" creatures would take the combined damage of both spells and AR would apply (since it would still apply to the solid dagger portion of the spell). But I don't have the option to modify the rules for this spell, only Matt has that, and I think some of these things have to be thought out very carefully since it sets a precedent.

If the damage for these two spells combined does not equal the combined damages as spelled out in the current rules for advanced spells, than we need another major revision to the FAQ to cover why and how it is should be done, because one can easily make arguments for why different things should or shouldn't combine, or whether a spell creates a weapon or "effect." I really don't want every table's ruling (on anything) to be different, as it destroys the feel of the shared campaign to have everything work differently at different tables. It worries me when I post and everyone posts on "how they would run it" when they are so wildly different and very wedded to their way. That is why we need things to be run by the rules, until there is a ruling that there is an exception.

If the campaign rules that when GoL combines with manipulate shadow, the spell only one spell's damage rather than both, is that a universal rule now? If it rules that the combined weapon is insubstantial and ignores AR, is that universal for spells that combine with GoL? Do these need to go into the errata?

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