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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:43 pm 
Hat wrote:
Ok,

In terms of ZCaslar's ability, it's too complicated for me. I've read it at least twice and I'm still not sure I fully get how it's supposed to operate. Further I think you can get a similar effect combining Flowing Sand and another technique.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


Understood. In the light of day I realize I tried to code a D&D 4th Edition-ish trick. The language would be a lot simpler if there was more constant forced movement rules as it's basically hit the target, slide it around, ricochet other enemies, and follow if you want. It's a 1/scene mass control trick.
The egregious rules-mongery is for covering all the possible bases like advanced techniques, vertical movement, free strikes, size differences, etc etc.
Really the basic description's not that complex; the problem with a simple description is how the rules are open to interpretation and I know I hate that because individual judges who don't think Nierite Smite machines dealing ~30+20 every 9 ticks is fine while paying three talents to take half falling damage is a "whoa, take a step back" moment based on the random alchemy of mood and perception.

(no, that is not aimed at anyone is particular.) :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:47 pm 
Harliquinn wrote:
It's not just about ranks but bonuses. An example is the kickstarter item that can't boost a combat skill. However someone with this style could put it into perform and bypass that. Substituting non-combat for combat skills is dangerous.

John


Hmm.
Could add a note like "*for purposes of bonuses Dance is considered a Combat skill."
That way advancement and any normal applicable bonuses are unchanged.

Alternately Dance's other uses for the Tal'Kanath are pretty niche, and unlikely to break anything. Individual mileage varies of course, only the Pedro truly knows, and this is homebrew unless Henry really likes it. 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:23 pm 
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Re: Eric's posting.

Tier I: I think using Perform (Dance) as a throwing skill is a perfectly valid option as you are basically making THAT your Ranged (Thrown) skill. Even with making it one of your archetype skills doesn't bother me that much as Blade Upon the Wind (ta) is a 1/scene power, which means it is of somewhat limited usefulness, or at least limited chances to be overpowered as some seem to think.

Tier II: Maybe also include Whirlwind Attack and/or Flowing Sand as it seems in fluff.

Tier III: I don't know, this doesn't seem very 'earthy' to me. Have it that as a Push 3 they can make a Perform Dance vs. one of the defences of whatever (or whoever) it is trying to push them back? Seems more appropriate to me (they are stuck to the ground).

Tier IV: I don't know about this one. Not sold on its overall utility with getting just a Tier II (Katar) weapon trick as a Tier IV power. The movement one is MORE powerful, but it is basically Quick (ta) (though you can reduce a Dash to 2 ticks). I'd almost simply say that it is Quick, or an improvement on Quick ("You can reduce any movement by 2 to a minimum of 1").

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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:09 pm 
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I'm certainly no one officlal. It seems no one else shares a concern of substituting non-combat skills for combat skills. I just recommend following the fighting style format set out in the Codex of Heroes for most things.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:30 pm 
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We have Bloodline talents which substitute non-Arcanum Skills for Arcanum Skills, so I see no issue substituting a non-Combat Skill for a Combat Skill. It all requires context, and must be limited which the Tier I ability is (only for Blade on the Wind).

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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:33 pm 
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Nierite wrote:
We have Bloodline talents which substitute non-Arcanum Skills for Arcanum Skills, so I see no issue substituting a non-Combat Skill for a Combat Skill. It all requires context, and must be limited which the Tier I ability is (only for Blade on the Wind).


It's for throwing your blade, which can be done outside of Blade on the Wind. I'm not aware of the other Bloodline Talents, so if there's precedence that's cool.

[edit] Just looked into the Talents. They seem to each work once / scene and only substitute the skill for 1 particular spell.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:43 pm 
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I have a Fighting Style submitted to PCI (so can't paste it here) that does do that at Tier I. Its for a specific weapon trick that doesn't do any damage, though.

At Tier III a skill substitution is made; again for a specific LMT (which is also limited to once per scene).

Both of those are *entirely* within the story for the style.

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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
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Southernskies wrote:
I have a Fighting Style submitted to PCI (so can't paste it here) that does do that at Tier I. Its for a specific weapon trick that doesn't do any damage, though.

At Tier III a skill substitution is made; again for a specific LMT (which is also limited to once per scene).

Both of those are *entirely* within the story for the style.

I take it my Tal Kanath rewrite should go to PCI and not on the boards if I want to see it available in the campaign and a book?


Last edited by Deviknyte on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Homebrew: Tal Kanath as a Fighting Style
PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:08 pm 
Harliquinn wrote:
I'm certainly no one officlal. It seems no one else shares a concern of substituting non-combat skills for combat skills. I just recommend following the fighting style format set out in the Codex of Heroes for most things.

John


I was reading a basic analysis of American law and the author was remarking on how some of the modern legal logjams are caused by decisions that are made in pursuit of a end ("I want people to stop urinating in public, here's a law punishing it") instead of a model ("I want laws that discourage public contagion on an individual level, here's a law broadly forbidding execreting bodily substances outside restrooms") and how this later results in unintended, sometimes costly, consequences. Allowing a non-Combat skill to work as a Combat skill is hazarding that principle.
Rules discourse can certainly get legalistic as well, and I can see your point. :lol:

My interest is that Thrown is in my experience dubiously useful, and Blade on the Wind is an unattractive combat talent. Seeing that patched would be terrific as it bugs me that Tal'Kanath feels so lackluster.

My kvetch about BotW is how it's tied to Thrown, that it can't be Adapted, and is really little better than just striking with the weapon. It's like getting Throw the Blade as a 1-use trick combined with a minor air rune.

I have been in a situation wherein I was struck by how useful Throw the Blade could have been, but it was just that: solitary and singular, and the day was carried anyway.

We hereabouts of these forums get various examples of builds and ideas, but are there any focused around quick, effective dagger use? On paper playing murder with short distance, low-clock volleys of daggers could ooze potential -footsy around using ally positioning to hamper enemy movements while stinging them with blades because you're constantly in your optimal range.
Or you could carry something with Mighty Swing, walk over the extra 10' and just kill them the way Nier likes to get it done. No messing around with the -4 for shooting into melee there, nor investing in talents to bolster mediocre weapons.

The minimum speed rules tend to work out to locals favoring Heirloom spd 4/5, d8/d10 weapons with solid basic tricks over carrying a spd 3, 1d4+1 Heirloom Dagger that might struggle to get through AR 3 on a minion.
I'm figuring the math by dividing a die's average by it's number of ticks in a basic strike to get 1.125 for a spd 4/d8 versus .833 per spd 3/1d4+1 dagger -not counting things like Sweeping Strike or the -4 ranged penalty or movement or that having a single higher-quality weapon is much simpler then finding and hoarding multiple Exceptional daggers. Gods help you if you throw one and lose it. :shock:

Anyway. As I see it Thrown and throwing weapons are a problem, and being able to fix that even a little by way of a homebrew Tal'Kanath is a terrific thing. That said, I respect reservations about changing skill utility though I believe an exception could be tolerable in taking Dancing, nearly worthless on it's own, and expanding it's use to include Throwing, which is very nearly as pointless, in very specific instance.

Also, I couldn't remember if Fine quality adds damage to the weapon. If it does, that changes the averages -but since all examples would be gaining that bonus, it doesn't change how they stack up.


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