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 Post subject: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:40 am
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So with all the focus this week on Arcane Strike and the recent claims that this Fighting Style is overpowered, I thought I would present a (hopefully) objective view of the benefits and why I feel the Style is fine as is.

Requirements
The fighting style has the 2nd most Talent Requirements of any Fighting Style with 4 (Dimachaerus Primus has 5 Talents), but also has the lowest Skill Requirements of 2 Ranks (Most have a total of 6-10 ranks). However, the requirements of Arcane Spell Casting and Medium Armor mean that a character needs specific choices along the way to accomplish this (Arcane Archetype with appropriate Background or Expert/Martial Archetype and the Arcane Apprentice Path). Given this, the requirements are not easy but appropriate.

Tier I
Arcane Strike: This is a Base Maneuver that combines a melee attack with the casting of a spell. The restrictions are as follows:
- The spell must require an attack roll
- The spell only affects the target of the attack (Even if it's normally an AoE or multi-target attack)
- Damage does not bypass AR (Even if the spell usually bypasses AR)
- Elemental AR applies to the entire damage of the attack if the spell does elemental damage (Even if the weapon part of the attack isn't normally subject to elemental AR)

For those restrictions, the benefit is:
- Damage: Weapon Die + Spell Damage Die + Weapon Attribute Die (For most unadapted spells, this is going to be an additional 1d6 damage or 3.5 average damage).
- Speed: The attack becomes Speed X (Recovery Y, Strain Z), where X is the higher of the Weapon Speed or Spell Speed, and Y is the lower of the two. Strain stays whatever the spell's strain was.

Analysis: - Using a Speed 4, d6 Weapon
Damaging Spell (For comparison, Elemental Bolt [Spd: 4, Str: 2] is used. No Adaptations assumed)
For the cost of: Speed 4, Recovery 4, Strain +2, and dealing with Elemental AR, the user gets Weapon+3.5 average damage and the ability to deal elemental damage with a weapon.
- Compare to Mighty Swing: For the cost of: Speed 5, Recovery 3, Strain 0, the user gets Weapon+5 additional damage. (The equivalent spell bump would need to be a 1d10 Spell Die to be greater damage than Might Swing.)
- Compare to Smite Heretic: For the cost of: Speed 6, Recovery 3, Strain 3, the user gets Weapon+3.5 average damage. This is a spell ANY Divine Caster receives and has no requirements as the Fighting Style does.

Status Effect Spell (For comparison, Enemy of my Enemy [Spd: 5, Str: 3] and Delusions of Grandeur [Spd: 4, Str: 2] are used. No Adaptations assumed)
This is where Arcane Strike has some unique and interesting options. By forgoing some damage of a Damage Spell, the user can instead impose a 'status effect' of some type on the target.
For the cost of Recovery 4, Strain +3, and requiring melee range, the user gets to add Weapon damage and place a status effect that they could cast at 30' range with no Recovery. It can be a powerful ability, but balances the restrictions above on damaging spells. In addition, the user has Recovery and is not likely to have the damage potential normally available in their next attack (Likely a Basic Attack).

NOTE: The only time this becomes way more powerful than just casting the spell is when combined with Multi-Attack Maneuvers. Combining this with movement or other maneuvers does not create the same unbalancing situation.

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Result: Arcane Strike used with damaging spells is slightly weaker than Mighty Swing and slightly better than Smite Heretic. Might Swing and Smite Heretic require no special training beyond taking the Talent or Spell to do so. Arcane Strike is limited and requires an investment in the Fighting Style.

Arcane Strike used with status effect spells gives added flexibility over just delivering damage. It also trades the spell's longer range and adds Recovery for add an average of 7.5 damage to the spell's normal effect.

==========
Tier II
Bound Weapon: A flavorful and useful Talent. It's weaker than the spell of the same name in terms of distance and only applicable to a weapon. This is comparable to the 'special abilities' granted by many other Fighting Styles.

Tactical Edge: Another standard among Fighting Styles. You gain Tactical Edge when using certain attacks, maneuvers, or spells against an opponent. While most Techniques grant the Tactical Edge as long as the user is in the Stance, Arcimous Primus has the additional requirement that the user gets the Tactical Edge on the spells only if they used a Martial Maneuver on their previous action. This can be limiting and situational; however, it fits the flavor of the style and is something a practitioner is likely to be doing anyways.

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Result: The Tier II abilities are in line with other fighting styles, with an additional restriction.

==========

Tier III
Deflect Attack: This is a free Martial Technique used in the stance. This is comparable with the free Martial Technique given by all other fighting styles. The main difference is for Arcimous Primus this is only usable with your Bound Weapon, whereas other styles allow it to be used with a generic weapon of the style.

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Result: The Tier III ability is the same as other fighting styles, with an additional restriction.

==========

Tier IV
Strain Reduction: The idea behind this capstone ability is that while under Strain, the user reduces their current strain by an amount equal to the Recovery of a maneuver they just performed.

NOTE: One thing to keep in mind is that a practitioner of Arcimous Primus WANTS to be under Strain for as long as possible until the next opportunity comes up to cast a spell. With Battle Magi, that is an additional 1 Avoidance. Anytime the character is unable to act and is not under strain they are easier to hit.

Analysis:
- Assumption: Weapon is Speed 3, d6 Damage (By now most have Exceptional Weapons)
- Assumption: Tier IV Base Maneuver used is Speed +2, Recovery 3 (This is Whirlwind Attack, because most higher tier melee maneuvers don't have Recovery)
- Assumption: Tier IV Advanced Maneuver used is Speed +2, Recovery 5 (Simulating combining 2 Base together)
- Assumption: Tier IV Base Spell used is Speed 4, Strain 4 (This seems a good baseline for Tier IV)
- Assumption: Tier IV Advanced Spell used is Speed 6, Strain 6 (I didn't want to get into Incorruptible Actions)
- Assumption: Adaptations to the spell add: Speed +2, Strain +2

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Scenario 1A: No Arcimous Primus, Base Maneuvers, Base Spells
Tick 1: Cast Base Spell (Speed 5, Strain 4)
Tick 6: Use Base Maneuver (Speed 5, Recovery 3) - Strain at: 4
Tick 10: Strain at: 0 (Avoidance bonus lost)
Tick 11: Next Action Available. Repeat above - Recovery at: 3

Scenario 1B: Arcimous Primus, Base Maneuvers, Base Spells
Tick 1: Cast Base Spell (Speed 5, Strain 4)
Tick 6: Use Base Maneuver (Speed 5, Recovery 3) - Strain at: 1
Tick 7: Strain at: 0 (Avoidance bonus lost)
Tick 11: Next Action Available. Repeat above - Recovery at: 3

-----

Scenario 2A: No Arcimous Primus, Advanced Maneuvers, Advanced Spells
Tick 1: Cast Advanced Spell (Speed 6, Strain 6)
Tick 7: Use Advanced Maneuver (Speed 5, Recovery 5) - Strain at: 6
Tick 12: Next Action Available. Strain at: 1, Recovery at: 5
Tick 13: Strain at: 0 (Avoidance bonus lost). Repeat Above.

Scenario 2B: Arcimous Primus, Advanced Maneuvers, Advanced Spells
Tick 1: Cast Advanced Spell (Speed 6, Strain 6)
Tick 7: Use Advanced Maneuver (Speed 5, Recovery 5) - Strain at: 1
Tick 8: Strain at: 0 (Avoidance bonus lost)
Tick 12: Next Action Available. Repeat above - Recovery at: 5

-----

General Scenario 3A: No Arcimous Primus
Tick 1: Cast Spell (Speed: X, Strain: Y)
Tick 1+X: Use Maneuver (Speed: A, Recovery: B) - Strain at: Y
Tick 1+X+Y: Strain at: 0 (Avoidance bonus lost)
Tick 1+X+A: Next Action Available - Recovery at: B (If A<Y, the character has to take damage to cast again or wait Y-A Ticks for Strain to bleed off)

In many cases, the Strain of the spell is going to be comparable with the Speed of the Maneuver, which means when the character's next action comes up, Strain is gone. At most it's usually going to be a wait of 1-2 ticks.

General Scenario 3B: Arcimous Primus
Tick 1: Cast Spell (Speed: X, Strain: Y)
Tick 1+X: Use Maneuver (Speed: A, Recovery: B) - Strain at: Y-B
Tick 1+X+(Y-B): Strain at: 0 (Avoidance bonus lost)
Tick 1+X+A: Next Action Available - Recovery at: B

To gain an advantage in Ticks, the Maneuver Recovery must be
For the Speed 5, Recovery 3 Base Maneuver used above, the caster gains a 1-3 Tick advantage for Strain from 6-8 and a 3 Tick Advantage above 8 Strain if they must cast with their next action.
For the Speed 5, Recovery 5 Advanced Maneuver used above, the caster gains a 1-5 Tick advantage for Strain from 6-10 and a 5 Tick Advantage above 10 Strain if they must cast with their next action.

Result: By using the Tier IV ability of Arcimous Primus, the character is able to act on average 1 Ticks sooner. The price for this is a lowered Avoidance for earlier Strain removal.

For characters under sufficiently high strain, the Arcimous Primus gives a 1-5 Tick advantage assuming the character either waits for Strain to bleed off completely, or a Damage Reduction from casting through Strain if they cast right away. Using another basic attack would still be prudent if the Strain is that great.

=========

I hope that this analysis is reviewed and I welcome comments, criticisms or errors found. I would like to hear dissenting opinions about this fighting style by those who still think it is overpowered as written.

John

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
I was under the impression that you gained recovery instead of strain. Where does it say you gain both?


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:58 pm 
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The example is clear about it:

The Speed of Elemental Bolt is 4 (+2) while a broad sword has a Speed of 5. This Arcane Strike has a Speed of 5 (the higher Speed), a Recovery of 4 (the lower Speed) and a Strain of 2.

I have never assumed you didn't get the strain of the spell and if that were the case, I would be first in line for the "Overpowered" boycott.

John

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- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
I read that maneuver like 8 times and missed the strain thing until you pointed it out exactly.

Quote:
Arcimous Primus want strain for avoidance.
Says who? It's only one point and it doesn't stack with a real shield or an ebon shield. Even without a shield alternative, not every caster is going to care about their one point of shield when taking zero points of damage would be a better option, considering how easy it is to get hit anyways.

The fact that you still gain strain when using this maneuver only makes the tier 4 ability more powerful in my eyes, although the maneuver itself is less powerful with this realization. The math in my head changes to this being more useful as you have more strain to drop and you will end up taking a ton less strain damage through out.


Last edited by Deviknyte on Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:07 pm 
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So please give me an example where the Tier 4 ability is too powerful? Something that is an exception to the general math I presented above where it generally gives maybe a 1 Tick advantage every time around the clock.

John

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- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:38 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
@John, looks like you are correct about damage spells. One would be better off using Mighty Swing. Mighty Swing has better damage output than most damage maneuver, and if not better, more consistent. In fact, it's pretty much not worth it to use a damaging spell with Arcane Strike.


Here is an example.
Psionic
Tick 01. Cast Enemy of My Enemy
Speed 6, Strain 5, Recovery 0

Tick 07. Hurl + Flowing Sand + Exceptional Broadsword and I probably Incidental
Weapon Speed 4, Maneuver Speed 4, Strain 1, Recovery 7
Assuming I take strain damage before I reduce my strain (a ruling is needed for that). I take 10 points of strain damage. Increase my strain by 5 and then reduce my strain by 7.
Hurl is going to deal a separate 6d6 falling (ignore AR) points of damage as you slam them into each other and they're prone too! This damage is assuming I didn't hurl them off of cliff or into an environmental hazard (lava).
Ending: Speed 8, Strain 0, Recovery 7, Stamina -10

Tick 15. Incidental and cast a Enemy of My Enemy at 0 strain for no stamina damage and a third spell in a row. Or any speed 5-6 spell to clear recovery.

This is just one example. Even in instances where you aren't clearing all of your recovery, you're nearly getting the chance to cast a spell every action. This is really efficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:32 pm 
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Using your example...

Arcane Strike: Broadsword (Spd 4) + Hurl (Spd 4, Str 1) = Spd 4, Rec 4, Str 1
- with Flowing Sand: Spd 4, Rec 7, Str 1

Tick 1: Cast Enemy of my Enemy (Speed 6, Strain 5)
Tick 7: Arcane Strike Broadsword/Hurl + Flowing Sand (Speed 4, Recovery 7, Strain 1) - You take 10 damage to do this (Not insignificant) - Strain is at: 0 (6-7 = -1)
With Arcimous Primus:
Tick 11: You are at: Recovery 7, Strain 0

Without Arcimous Primus:
Tick 11: You are at: Recovery 7, Strain 2 (Assuming the original Strain continues to tick down)

So with Arcimous Primus, you're basically 2 Ticks of Strain ticking down ahead, which you could take as 4 damage or do a Basic Attack.

Net Result: 2 Tick Advantage at Tier IV

I'm not addressing the whole multi-attacks problem as that is a separate issue.

John

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:15 pm 
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Just for argument's sake, without Arcimus Primus, a caster can do this:

Hurl: Speed 4 (+1)
Kinetic Bolt: Speed 4 (+2)

Advanced: Kinetic Hurl: Speed 6 (+3) - Adapt to 60' (2 Targets) gives Speed: 6 (+3).

There are plenty of ways to combine particular things for a spectacular effect. That doesn't mean you have to make sweeping changes to the individual components.

With Confound (Elder) and Elemental Bolt (Eldritch) you can turn almost any single target ranged spell into an AoE version as well.

That seems to be how the game scales at higher tiers.

John

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:04 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
Harliquinn wrote:
Using your example...

Arcane Strike: Broadsword (Spd 4) + Hurl (Spd 4, Str 1) = Spd 4, Rec 4, Str 1
- with Flowing Sand: Spd 4, Rec 7, Str 1

Tick 1: Cast Enemy of my Enemy (Speed 6, Strain 5)
Tick 7: Arcane Strike Broadsword/Hurl + Flowing Sand (Speed 4, Recovery 7, Strain 1) - You take 10 damage to do this (Not insignificant) - Strain is at: 0 (6-7 = -1)
With Arcimous Primus:
Tick 11: You are at: Recovery 7, Strain 0

I think you forgot to add your weapon speed to your arcane strike. Arcane Strike Broadsword Hurl has is Speed 4 Recovery 4 Strain 1. Add 3 to recovery for Flowing Sand. Sp 4 Re 7 St 1. When you use the maneuver you forgot to add the exceptional broadsword to your ticks. Maneuver plus weapon = Sp 8 Re 4 St 1. You should be at tick 15 (tick 3). Just because the maneuver uses your weapon speed to determine it's speed, I don't see why you still wouldn't add your weapon speed. It a says the maneuver's speed is slower as speed and faster as recovery. I'm I missing a part?

As per the damage you would have taken 10 for casting a second spell regularly.

Quote:
(Assuming the original Strain continues to tick down)
Where are you getting this? Why would my strain go down without the tier 4 ability? The player just cast 2 spells in a row, you would have strain 6.


Last edited by Deviknyte on Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcimous Primus - Comparative Study
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:08 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
Harliquinn wrote:
Just for argument's sake, without Arcimus Primus, a caster can do this:

Hurl: Speed 4 (+1)
Kinetic Bolt: Speed 4 (+2)

Advanced: Kinetic Hurl: Speed 6 (+3) - Adapt to 60' (2 Targets) gives Speed: 6 (+3).
On the note of changing things to area, isn't Arcane Strike a much more efficient way to go about it strain and tick wise?

Harliquinn wrote:
There are plenty of ways to combine particular things for a spectacular effect. That doesn't mean you have to make sweeping changes to the individual components.

With Confound (Elder) and Elemental Bolt (Eldritch) you can turn almost any single target ranged spell into an AoE version as well.

That seems to be how the game scales at higher tiers.
True but aren't a lot of these spells going to be at speed 7+? Especially for elder casters?


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