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 Post subject: elder vs. primal magic [was: lesser Valinor]
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:50 am
Posts: 485
Location: Tampa, Florida (temp.)
Nierite wrote:
Elder Magic and Eldritch Magic requires that you have the 'spark' of the Arcane, giving you a genetic ability to manipulate the Arcanum. Elder requires intense study, while Eldritch is effectively improvisation rather than memorization.

Primal Magic is you basically selling your soul to a powerful being (Minor God, Elder Elemental, Nature Spirit, etc) who grants you a portion of their power, which manifests as an ability to manipulate the Arcanum.

I had agreed with Cody's descriptions based on the ARPG definitions. Now that Sorcerous Pacts is out, however, it blurs the lines between elder and primal magic. The pacts let elorii cast certain spells as elder magic even though they're originating from a powerful elemental lord.

This makes me wonder whether perhaps all (or many) elder and eldritch spells might actually be via a third party like primal arcanum and the sorcerous pacts--it's just that it's all behind the scenes and invisible to the caster. For example, maybe Sarish (or His Valinor) actually power all eldritch spells.

What do others think about this blurring of elder and primal magic introduced in the pacts?

David Thomas Chappell
Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 am
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Location: Central Alberta
I don't see a MAJOR issue with it, even though you are correct how the Pact Magic blurs the lines somewhat. From the fluff in the book they are not granting you access to the magic itself, merely 'placing into your mind' the spell in the case of the lower spells and it is up to you to cast it. Primal Magic is literally "I am merely a channel for this other guy's powers" while this would be him slipping you a note during a test with the answer on it.

Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:01 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1995
Location: Portland OR
Yes, absolutely lines get blurred. But don't tell Telas! I hear the elorii get snipy when thier super mojo gets described as a lesser form of magic.

Although I've always liked Cody's formulation as a short hand or a sound bite, I've never fully bought into his definition of primal magic. All primal practitioners use the spirits of the area to do the heavy lifting in spellcasting. But the casters still undergo strain so I assume they are also channelling and manipulating energy. It also seems to me that they need a grounding in arcane magic just to start contacting spirits. So i think its vastly more complicated then "selling their soul for power."

Some primal casters clearly do just that. Some witches. Cultists. The Ehtzarta. But not all primal casters fit the in either of those camps. Some *ahem* seems to form pacts and alliances instead. Like many Under and some hinterland shamans.

The big difference to me is that primal magic is a defined set of "combat moves" that can be used on the fly where ever you are with whatever spiritual resources are at hand. Pact magic is a single boon from a very powerful and very distant creature.

It would be interesting to see Arcanis develop something along the lines of ritual magic that takes too long to be used n combat but produces powerful effects. Perhaps like what rituals should have been like in the 4th edition of D&D.

Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen

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