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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:49 am 
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What exactly was the Church in Bastion? This is a great and timely question and the answer is we don't know. Hope they publish something with the val Vasik characters! We know Xabal was deeply pious despite being a fallen valinor.

I see 2 significant possibility:

1) Xabal's deep institutional knowledge of the First Imperium means that he had the knowledge to set up a Pantheonistic clerisy. Unique in Onara is a corner that actually worships the Gods the way They originally wanted humanity to worship them.

2) even though Xabal built physical temples to all the gods he only knew the rites of the Illirite Temple and the only true priests were Illiirite.

Would love to know what the truth is.

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:28 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
Some of that depends on how/why he went from being the "patience of sarish" to the "patience of illiir." Texts seem to indicate it was due to a misidentification about him, which is easy since he stayed apart and is a Valinor. But since I assume it is hard to misidentify churches, than the statement, "As a result, the city is filled with temples to Sarish and the other members of the Pantheon," made in the legacy of damnation book would indicate that while he was a Valinor of Illiir, the strongest church presence in Bastion was that of Sarish. This can easily make sense since they are literally surrounded by demons, so Sarishans would possibly be the most useful of the churches... If calling him a Valinor of Sarish was just a publishing "oops" than obviously those should have been Illiirite churches, and that would make sense since they were led by a valinor of Illiir.

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:56 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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Hello,

No, not a publishing oops.

When writing Arcanis, I feel it necessary to convey the game of "telephone" that occurs across large distances, different cultures and over long stretches of time. I find it especially important in this time of instant communication and just about having the vast suim knowledge of humanity at your fingertips.

Xabal was always a Valinor of Illiir. How did he become identified as one of Sarish? See above.

As to the religion, Eric is correct that Xabal wanted to create a mirror image of the Pantheonistic Church and did so up to a point. But even a Valinor doesn't know everything, so he could only put forth those Cants of the Illiiric church. So while the only divine casting val'Vasik priests are Illiirite, there were "functional" priests for the rest, as needed. So Nerothian priests covered funeral rites and burials, but lacked the Cants to cast spells, as well as the conviction of faith in Neroth. Not that they didn't believe Neroth existed - Xabal told them so, but because they had a veritable god (little "g") in their midst and one tends to gravitate to what is in front of them rather than what is ephemeral.

So while other "priests" existed, compared to those outside the Fiendish Expanse they are more caretakers than actiual priests.

Congratulations Eric - seems like you graduated to Arcanis 202.

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:58 am 
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Reading posts like this makes me sure I'm in Remedial Arcanis 001.

John

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:07 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
So Xabal tried to set up a pantheonistic church, but only the illiirites had spells; and all the rest were pretty weak. Than why the multitude of sarishan churches if they weren't actually able to help against the demons? That seems a little odd. Or was that miscommunication and there are really a ton of Illiirite churches there?

Also, I am very weak on how pantheonistic spells work. Would Illirites from Bastion be able to cast Hammer of Radiance? Its an Illiir/Althares pantheonistic spell. If its a pantheonistic church than there should be joint worshippers, and Xabal should be able to teach it since its an Illiirite spell, right?

Will the Val'Vasiks automatically qualify to take the "Keepers of Forgotten Lore" Path without needing Orthodoxy prestige or will the talents "Dual Faiths" and "The Old Ways" not be limited for them? Since they are pantheonistic to begin with? (I assume not for balance purposes) What affect does seeing a church set up like this by a valinor have on the existing churches?

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:20 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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the story and mechanics don't seem to mix well here

I leave Henry to talk about how [SPOILER end of the story arc] affected the faith of the val'Vasik

the residents of Bastion have a pantheistic church, however it wasnt a true pantheistic church looking at Henry's description, it was a church where the priests of Illir were functional priests (mechanically) for casting the cants of illir and where the rest of the pantheon's priests existed and paid lip service but were non functional (mechanically) for casting any cants for their god.

Mother church and the Millandsian orthodoxy are "pantheistic" churches in the sense they encompass all of the gods in their church, but individuals priests only learn the cants of one god, very similar to what occurs in bastion (except all divine casters are illirites).

the "Keepers of Forgotten Lore" Path 'source' is teachings of the orthodoxy SS, and much differnt than what is being talked about here. its about priests learning the cants of another god and having the faith to use them, and sometimes learning a spell of forgotten lore that was based on the aspect of two gods.

--Thats my unofficial take on it

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:06 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
If we’re taking unofficial guesses, than I would think that they would naturally qualify for the “Seeker’s of Forgotten Lore” path (without orthodoxy prestige) since they were raised pantheonistic, but would not have free access to the talents since they didn’t have access to the cants of other gods while they were in Bastion.

But that’s just my take, and I think I’m batting below random guessing on accuracy on guessing official answers right now.

Of course, that said, I would think they would be natural members of the Orthodoxy, and it might be interesting to know what Bastion looks like today. After all, it’s been 40 years since the Gods Wall fell, right? While traffic should have been light since they are way off the beaten path (to understate things) they still should have been able to import priests of other gods or export initiates to learn and bring knowledge back. Unless Xabal discouraged such activity, but that doesn’t seem likely considering he did teach them what he could to set up churches to the other gods. I would think importing priests of Sarish would have been high priority. And for 40 of those years Xabal was still there. So if he did allow/encourage spiritual learning, than they could have a thriving pantheonistic church going on by now. (But I doubt it, since I assume the answer will be that Xabal was extremely conservative and unofficially discouraged outsider priests coming in to support their churches or something)

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:18 am 
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Well, we know that Xabal discouraged outsiders (wasn't too fond of any of his neigbours), so I wouldn't think too many outsiders would be allowed in. We know that SOME were allowed in (see the Tultipetan and her Gnomish son), but I doubt many would pass through.

Also, my read on Xabal's character is such that he was unwilling to allow change to affect his personal, 'perfect' society. He exercised tight population control and social programming, and the introduction of new ideas--even those what officially fit with what you profess--are dangerous and often opposed by those who have a vested interest in the status quo. As such, with this information, I'd see the val'Vasiks being an Illiirite sect, and would be a good fit to the Coryani Orthodoxy when they find out about it. Then again, I also think they would be a great fit to ELANDRE's view of the Mother Church (an Illiirite-dominated religion) as it is close to what they're familiar with.

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:20 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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No, valVasik do not get a free pass to the "Seekers of Forbidden Knowledge". As I said above, they were Pantheonistic in name only, or perhaps a little more than that but not much.

They don't know the rites and rituals, let alone the Cants of the other Gods, other than in a rudimentary way.

Lastly, Bastion was not a major destination for the people on the south side of the Wall. Besides the horde of Infernals in between, there was no real form of communication between them but for a few intrepid folk.

If you'll recall the three part adventure where you go deep into the Fiendish Expanse, that was the first time a diplomatic delegation was sent to Bastion.

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 Post subject: Re: lesser Valinor
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:55 am
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Location: Northern Idaho
val Holryn wrote:
The metaphor Henry has used is that the Cant''s cosmic legos build the gun but it is the users faith that pulls the trigger.

:D Come to think of it he didn't quite use the words cosmic legos. Still ...

That is awesome. Unless Henry steps in and says that's totally wrong, I'm using that to explain Arcanis magic from now on.

Harliquinn wrote:
Reading posts like this makes me sure I'm in Remedial Arcanis 001.

John

I love threads like this. I was only been relatively recently introduced to Arcanis, and have very little knowledge of anything that happened while on the 3.5 d20 system. Some of you guys have been playing since the beginning and it feels daunting at times to be totally in the dark on things the old hands know and discuss because you were there when it happened.

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