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 Post subject: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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well in all things that require choices, there are choices that are optimal and there choices that are not optimal, and that evaluation of optimal is different for each player and character concept. The more choices that you make the more opportunity there is to be on a not optimal path for your character. I would argue that mods are not targeted at optimal characters rather than the characters that are more middle of the road.

If your a jack of all trades you are a master of none. This is a world where not all places, races, spells and weapons are equal and balanced. Optimality is very subjective, a character can be really good at one thing, and next to useless in another.

One thing that has been in every mod produced is combat, its fairly easy to say that if you specialize in combat you will have a chance to shine in every mod. that's not as true with diplomacy or wilderness lore or thieving skills (and the way to change that is to write mods or influence writers directly)

in Arcanis there are multiple ways to specialize in combat, melee fighters, ranged fighters, spell casters of different stripes, and hybrids of those (not all hybrids mind you). My personal opinion is that the most effective character is one that maximizes the use of strain and recovery, but that is just one take on the idea.

I would hazard a guess that its probably possible to optimize a lot of things, but you have to go into the project with that in mind, and a lot of people don't play that way. and this has been an eternal problem in gaming, particular living campaigns where there is a very diverse set of players. to some people (like me) there is a lot of fun to be had solving the logical puzzles presented by optimizing characters, and some people have a lot of fun roleplaying their characters in social interactions, it takes all stripes of people.

I don't think there is one or even a small subset of dominant character types, I do however firmly believe that not all concepts are equally viable. for example I don't see a good way to make a Dark kin character that's dependent on a horn gore attack to be optimized (or even very survivable) However that might make a Great thematic trait or a good, opening move or finishing move or backup weapon type thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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repost for john to restart that discussion

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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:03 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
repost for john to restart that discussion


I'm not sure I'm ready to really open up the can of worms this discussion could result in. I'll see if I can get my thoughts together into coherent discussion points. I have a feeling (based upon past experiences) that my ideas are in the minority.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Well its a touchy subject granted, but i think you will find there are some interesting people on your side of the fence (as I perceive it) and I would rather talk about it than let it be resented in other places.

I am of one opinion and I know my opinion is right for me, and it might not be right for you (or any other player) I am not trying to force my opinion on you or tell you that your opinion is wrong, I'm just trying to say different approaches get different results.

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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:41 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
Meh, I'll weigh in right now.

From what I've seen, the most optimized characters in encounters that I have been involved with have had a few things in common:

1) They are Vals - This does not mean that ALL Vals are optimized, but in an adventure taking place in Human-centric territories, where even common-born Vals are viewed with a certain awe, this helps them out significantly. Also, several of the families have very useful Bloodline powers which gives them additional options depending on the families.

2) Martial or Expert - In terms of sustained combat power and skill rolls, these two Archetypes are better (on average) than Arcane and Divine. Actually, Divine is probably the LEAST optimized, as if you keep to Church-related backgrounds and paths you can get a lot of overlap making you either very specialized, or possibly make you lose a talent or two.

3) Use faster weapons - It seems to me that those who use faster weapons that are only 3-4 Ticks are much more effective in combat. Part of this is basic statistics, as they get more chances to swing a sword than the 5-7 tick crowd.

4) Maximize Prowess and Quickness - These two stats seem to be very powerful for hitting, init, Avoidance, etc. Also, many of the lighter weapons tend to have the Quick quality, meaning that you can pump Quickness over Might.

5) Spread your Skill Points around - Instead of focusing your Skill Points on specific skills, becoming awesome at them at Character creation, farm out as many of them as possible into skills you are not trained in. Keep essential Arcane/Melee/Ranged skills as high as you can go, but otherwise let them be free. After all, a +4 isn't that much better than a +3, and by Tier V you're looking at the difference of less than 10% overall.

Are these sure-fire ways to win? No. However, these are trends that I do see more often than not. Hell, my character is guilty of some of these, though I will say that A) I created this character before the Rules were even fully written, and B) I am horrendously guilty of breaking some of these rules in other ways with that character.

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Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Cody i would posit a slight change, that they are Vals OR humans

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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:01 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
I know what I said, and I'm sticking to it ;). Humans have a lot of advantages too, but since this is for optimization, I'm saying what the most 'optimized' group is, and that is Val.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:29 pm 
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I think the foundation of my argument is that while I agree that choices should have consequences, if the game truly wants to support an individual's visions for their character concept, then reasonable choices need to be balanced. This doesn't mean they must be equal, and some choices should offer a benefit in one area while having a drawback in another. Choices which have only benefits become the default standard and anyone not using those choices is considered 'suboptimal' or even 'underpowered'.

As an example:
Say you want to play a character who specializes in tripping his opponents. You generally have 2 options in the game:
Option 1) Use a weapon that is traditionally known for tripping foes (whips, flails, staves, spiked chains)
Option 2) Use a shield (I'm sorry if it appears I am targeting anyone's character, I'm not it's just a good apples to apples comparison in my opinion)

Option 1: The traditional build would take Weapon Training in one of the listed weapons, learn the Maneuver "Trip Foe", and continue to benefit from their Weapon Tricks. The "Trip Foe" maneuver costs +2 (1) speed, is Advanced (so can never be combined), and does no weapon damage. In addition, three of the weapons this is most closely associated with (whip, steel whip, and spike chain) are saddled with arguably several very poor Weapon Tricks (Bypass the Shield and Rapid Strike namely). Finally, one of the weapons is the single most expensive weapon in the game (steel whip) and has no compensating benefit.

Option 2: The shield build requires only Weapon Training (or Armor Training) in Shield and to use the Tier 1 (or 3) Weapon Trick Shield Slam. It's a speed +0 (4), Base (so can be combined with many multi-target maneuvers), does weapon damage, and also pushes the opponent's clock. The shield also has defensive abilities (though not usable when attacking) and some great weapon tricks (Assuming that Shield Defense works like Total Defense where the Recovery starts when you decide to act next).

So if you want the more traditional option with the less than common weapons, you are left with many suboptimal choices which can combine to be very bad. Or you can choose the obviously optimized solution. In my opinion, for things to be balanced and for the choices to be based upon how you see your character, Option 1 should have some other benefits to it to compensate for the distinct lack of comparable effectiveness.

This is just one example. Another is that of ranged weapons. If you want to play a ranged character, Bow (or sling) are your only viable options. While the bow has traditionally required more training, in the game, it's just as easy to learn one as the other. For the choice to be based upon character concept, crossbows and flintlocks should be comparable, even if their strengths/weaknesses are different. However, bows have only strengths over the other two.
- Cost less
- Are much faster to shoot/reload
- Have greater range
- Have one of the best weapon tricks in the game (darken the sky)
- Remove reload all together with 1 Talent

Well I think that's good enough for now :) I look forward to more discussion.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:47 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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John the best solution i can see to your dilemma is talents or a fighting style that changes those advanced manuevers to basic ones.

I hear that PCI might have a book out soon, perhaps you can write up some suggestion and send em off to Pedro

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 Post subject: Re: Optimization
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:07 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
John the best solution i can see to your dilemma is talents or a fighting style that changes those advanced manuevers to basic ones.

I hear that PCI might have a book out soon, perhaps you can write up some suggestion and send em off to Pedro


I have some ideas, but honestly wasn't aware of a new book for soliciting inputs. I was excited when I first saw Steel Dragon but it just wasn't a good fit.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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