I'm not sure that any weapons were specifically 'nerfed' when building the new system. That would be a question for Pedro.

As for tripping with a steel whip, you have the option of combing the simple combat maneuver Trip with the weapon trick Long strike.

Steel Whip Long Strike + Trip = Range 10', Speed 7(3), Weapon Damage (Mi or Qu), if also bypass Fortitude, Target falls.

You are subject to Free strikes, but because you have range 10' you have the opportunity to maneuver away from them. Unless your target has a reach weapon, they can't respond. An opponent under recovery I don't think can make a free strike either, so that 'penalty' may not apply depending. If you're fighting a high fortitude opponent you'd still do damage if you bypass their Avoidance, even if you don't bypass their Fortitude.

This strikes me as better potentially than the 6(1) Improved Trip option.

Small Shield Slam has an edge when next to the opponent, 4(4), Weapon damage, prone plus push 3 but not at range. They lose their avoidance bonus which is a penalty.

With a whip because it already has Range 10' you can combine the Trip with another maneuver.

Submitting ideas for maneuvers, perhaps as a combination of Long Strike and Improved Trip or something to that effect might work.

With a sweep of his...

Hat

This had been my intention. However, I was told by PCI and others that the "Simple Combat Maneuvers" are considered 'advanced' and cannot be combined with any Weapon Tricks or Base Maneuvers.

If this has changed, then I agree, this is great and what I had originally intended to do.

John

On this note, I think it would be 3 (4) for small shield, 4 (4) for large shield. Also, is it not possible to combine "Throw the Shield" with "Shield Bash" and have it occur at range? If not, then I've not seen anything that said base maneuvers need to share the same 'range'.

John

Small Shield is Speed 4, D6, so +0(4) for Shield Slam brings it to 4(4). As for combining Shield Slam and Throw the Shield, I can't find any rules quickly that states you can combine (or not combine) a maneuver for a ranged target and a melee target. Logically speaking though, it doesn't make sense to be able to combine them. Otherwise you'd get things like Mighty Throw + Sweeping Strike. For the shield combo, to throw it the shield has to be tossed like a frisbee. For the slam to work and knock them prone you have to hit them with the face of the shield. The two aren't compatible. Barring an explicit ruling for being able to combine them I wouldn't permit them at my table.

As for the other part, is there some official explanation or ruling you can point to?

With a sweep of his...

Hat

It was officially stated by Pedro on the old boards. Other than that, there's nothing other than they are called "Simple Combat Maneuvers" rather than "Base Combat Maneuvers".

John

I don't know if it's explicitly spelled out in the rules or not but I've always assumed you can not combine a melee and ranged maneuver/trick (because it almost never makes any sense).

This is probably a good rule of thumb (even if it's not stated). I just remember seeing some potentially cool combos by combining them I haven't done a 'count' but I'm guessing if ranged can only be combined with ranged, there won't be a ton of advanced maneuvers that can be created for thrown weapons.

John

I remember that post. Simple combat maneuvers are not Base maneuvers and are not able to be combined to form an advanced maneuver.

Scott

ok you guys posted some confusing things regarding limited what maneuvers you can combine (regarding ranged and melee maneuvers)

Here is the pertinent portion of the rules:



that means specifically that I can combine Lunge (any melee weapon or unarmed) and Twin throw (Dagger) to move up to half my movement and then throw 2 daggers as a ranged attack.




HOWEVER
Advanced maneuvers don't account for range.


You guys are right they probably should account for range, what happens if we combine a couple of bow maneuvers ( precise aim 30' and twin arrows 60' for example ), i would think logic dictates that we take the smaller of the two ranges, with melee being the smallest range.

so if you really wanted to do that barrel roll attack, I'd say go for it, at melee range your going to incur a free strike.

Those are the types of Advanced Maneuvers that I thought were possible. *laugh* so many potentially confusing aspects I wouldn't give up those aspects since I love the flexibility but it does require some extra thought.

Sadly, I fear the Simple Maneuvers are still maneuvers non grata for Advanced

John