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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 639
OK. I'm glad I posted this before springing it on John tomorrow night like I planed to do. 8-)

First thing I noticed is that I didn't put Acrimous Primus in my build. So, back to the stat block.....

Second thing, I'm going to hold off on using this until there is some form of consensus. Clearly as written Arcane Strike allows ANY Spell. But _my_ BS meter is sounding alarms with this combo. And well consider that I'm the man who's BS meter runs a little light.

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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:33 pm 
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Okay as I have a dog in this fight (Arcane Strike), I'm going to try and address a few things point by point.

First Point: I won't speculate on how difficult it is to get into, but getting both Arcane Spellcasting (other than Psionics) and Medium Armor isn't an easy task and requires some careful planning or delaying your fighting style to .
Arcane Spell Casting + Medium Armor Training:
- This means that if you start Arcane Archetype, you need to come by Medium Armor either through one of a few backgrounds (Squire, Former Shining Patrol, Veteran of Altherian War, Soldier of Retribution, or some Templars) or take the Talent.
- If you start as Martial / Expert Archetype, you need to wait until you take your first Path (Arcane Apprentice), and the Arcane Spellcasting Talent (Which can't be the same advancement as the Fighting Style) or be a Val (They get all the breaks). Experts still need to acquire Medium Armor somehow.

Second Point:
Sure, Mighty Swing is comparable with Arcane Strike (Elemental Bolt) when you use damage. I think Mighty Swing edges out a bit ahead since it's a fixed 5 damage all the time and 3.5 average is a fair bit lower than that.

Third Point:
Using Enemy of my Enemy as an example, you can already affect 2 targets at 30' feet away with a simple Adaptation (CTN: 21, Speed +2, Strain +2). It makes it incorruptible but it's from 30' away and there are ways to adapt it to reduce the speed. Arcane Strike requires you to be in melee with the target you're attacking and you can't target additional foes without making it into an advanced maneuver.

Arcane Strike needs to be good for spells other than damage, as it's rather lackluster when using it with only damage. The "does not bypass AR" and "all damage becomes elemental and subject to elemental AR" mean that mean you suffer all the penalties of the spell and none of the benefits.

The niche that Arcane Strike fills is the ability to knock someone upside the head with your weapon while at the same time being able to put on some type of status effect. Arcane Strike is fine the way it is.

The only potential problem is that it's not very costly to suddenly combine that with Sweeping Strike or other 'multi-target maneuvers'. Therefore, the focus of any discussion should be on "Why is Sweeping Strike so inexpensive to hit 2-3 targets when combined with other base maneuvers."

To use Mighty Swing as an example, for Speed 6, Recovery 4, you're doing 15 extra damage.
To use Shield Slam as an example (It has a status effect), for Speed 5, Recovery 4, you're doing Shield Damage to 3 Opponents, Knocking 3 Opponents Prone, and Pushing 3 Opponents' clocks by 3.

Now, I wouldn't recommend making Sweeping Strike advanced, as it makes for awesome combos. I also wouldn't recommend making Arcane Strike advanced as it synergies well with things like Passing Strike, etc.

I honestly don't see any problem. Arcane Archetypes aren't likely to have the Might 6 needed to have learned Sweeping Strike, and Martial/Expert Archetypes (other than Val) need to spend a Path Advancement and another Talent just to get into the Fighting Style, which is fairly costly for the benefit.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:36 pm 
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Eric Hughes wrote:
OK. I'm glad I posted this before springing it on John tomorrow night like I planed to do. 8-)

First thing I noticed is that I didn't put Acrimous Primus in my build. So, back to the stat block.....

Second thing, I'm going to hold off on using this until there is some form of consensus. Clearly as written Arcane Strike allows ANY Spell. But _my_ BS meter is sounding alarms with this combo. And well consider that I'm the man who's BS meter runs a little light.


I'm perfectly okay with you using those combos. It's how Kelb plans to fight, using Arcane Strike with interesting spells like Disorient and others.

Arcane Strike allows any spell with an attack roll. I'm not sure why this is setting off any alarms when you can achieve almost similar results with no investment (Just using Adaptations on the regular spell) and usually at range or already covering multiple targets.

I actually *want* you to use this combo tomorrow. Which Archetype are you using it with?

John

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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:38 pm 
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Simplest solution: Make Arcane Strike (ta) an Advanced Manoeuvre.

Its in effect already combining two 'manoevres' anyway (Basic Attack and Base Spell).

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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:42 pm 
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Southernskies wrote:
Simplest solution: Make Arcane Strike (ta) an Advanced Manoeuvre.

Its in effect already combining two 'manoevres' anyway (Basic Attack and Base Spell).


Simplest solution, but a poor one that does nothing to address the larger issue. Arcane Strike synergies well with other Base Maneuvers, such as Passing Strike, etc. and is on par with other maneuvers. The problem again isn't Arcane Strike and it's silly to recommend changing it to Advanced to fix an issue with a few other maneuvers, which have problems when combined with anything because they are cheap.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 639
Harliquinn wrote:
Eric Hughes wrote:
OK. I'm glad I posted this before springing it on John tomorrow night like I planed to do. 8-)

First thing I noticed is that I didn't put Acrimous Primus in my build. So, back to the stat block.....

Second thing, I'm going to hold off on using this until there is some form of consensus. Clearly as written Arcane Strike allows ANY Spell. But _my_ BS meter is sounding alarms with this combo. And well consider that I'm the man who's BS meter runs a little light.


I'm perfectly okay with you using those combos. It's how Kelb plans to fight, using Arcane Strike with interesting spells like Disorient and others.

Arcane Strike allows any spell with an attack roll. I'm not sure why this is setting off any alarms when you can achieve almost similar results with no investment (Just using Adaptations on the regular spell) and usually at range or already covering multiple targets.

I actually *want* you to use this combo tomorrow. Which Archetype are you using it with?

John

I am always worried when the gm begs me to bring cheese :P

I'm playing an arcane battle mage of the legion of the watchful hunter.

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Eric Hughes

There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:49 pm 
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Trust me, you are the Cheese King and this is not cheese.

I'll be interested to see how it works out. Kelb doesn't have Mighty Swing so he can't affect multiple targets anyways. I do look forward to using it with Passing Strike though.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
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Harliquinn wrote:
Trust me, you are the Cheese King and this is not cheese.

John

I'm trying to abdicate the throne. I saw what happened in almeric.

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Eric Hughes

There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:59 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
Posts: 486
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Harliquinn wrote:
If the intent is that in order to get an additional d6 damage, you practically double the weapon speed with a big recovery, that makes it pretty pointless. You're already losing any AR of the base spell, suffering Elemental AR to weapon damage, and losing the Primary Spell die. There are a lot of 'typos' in Arcane Strike *Using "Basic" instead of "Base", but I'm sure it's supposed to work as above, with the higher of the two becoming the overall Speed of the maneuver. Given the example I think it's clear as well.

Lastly, maneuvers which you add weapon speed to are always listed as Speed: +X (Y) as well.

John


That is just the thing, I do not believe that is the intent at all, I am just saying that the verbiage used makes a disparity between the intention and what the rule actually says. I think the intention of the maneuver is to work as you interpret it, but the wording used (unfortunately) backs how I read it. Also, with the exception of Push maneuvers and a few weapon tricks, every single maneuver all say +/-X(Y). Arcane Strike is the 1 exception, and it says "see description" and the description says the speed/recovery of the maneuver is formed by the speeds of the weapon and spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Customized Advanced Maneuvers
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:08 pm 
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Continue if you wish..

But I always saw the Arcane Strike, Sweeping Strike as a equalizer with casters being able to hit multiple targets (even at range) and deal damage + status effects.

and yes the Shield Bash/Sweeping Strike combo was discovered in play testing....

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