Last visit was: It is currently Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:50 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 11:03 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 2109
Location: Portland OR
Hey there. Here's a question I have been ruminating over: Is there any known intersections/connections between Belisarda and Jeggal Sagg? I am all but certain we've never seen one in print. But I think there probably should be...

As we all know Belisarda is essentially the life force of the planet Arcanis. That's a normally animist/primal idea (an inanimate object has a spirit or soul) scaled up to capital "G" Godhood.

Allegedly her first children are the Plant Lords and/or plants of the planet Arcanis. The Plant Lords - to our current knowledge - aren't exactly primal spirits and do not have shamans interacting with them, but they do form Pacts that fuel magic and they are ancient. Apparently they are even more powerful than elder elorii, which puts them in some pretty rarified company.

So what about animals & beasts? If Belisarda is the life force of the planet Arcanis then wouldn't it be logical that there is an animal version of the Plant Lords? Wouldn't they be something like her "second children?" The more I think about it, the more I think such an entity or entities would resemble Jeggal Sagg, who is supposedly the primal patron of all beasts. How has a "beast lord" never been linked to Belisarda in some way?

I note that JS isn't entirely represented to us as a primal spirit either. We have descriptions of him as a demi-power, and as the son of Kassegore and Yig. Most curious to me, he has a physical body buried under a mound in Ssethregore. The primal spirits as I understand them do not have a full time physical bodies. JS also has his own version of a Holy Symbol (even if it apparently channels primal power).

So what's up with that?

I also note that JS only looks after the Ssethrics, even though one presumes that a true primal power of beasts would be venerated by Shamans everywhere. That seems to suggest that JS has nothing to do with Belisarda. Maybe JS is really some kind of interloper power that came in from off world? Is there some hoary tale lost to deep antiquity where he took the power & portfolio of beasts from someone/thing else? But if Jeggal Sagg has nothing to do with the life force of Arcanis then I have to ask, does (or did) Belisarda have "lieutenants" analogous to the plant lords with dominion over animals? Are they still out there?

Does anyone have a take, or at least thoughts on this?

_________________
Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
I have wondered about this as well, as the newest version of the Ssethrics book not only introduced a newly known historical diety of the Ssethrics (Korlak, who sounds a lot like Nier, or maybe the Khitani version of Hurrian), but also changed some of the language talking about Jeggal Sagg. Now it says he may be "one of the fabled twelve children of Kassegore and Yig" which I thought previously was indicated about the great dragons. I find it interesting that there may be 11 others beings of a similar power level to him out there - and it obviously makes a connection to the 12 PoM gods (though not direct since one of the current PoM gods is Yig).

Additionally, I wouldn't put it past Jeggal Sag to be able to have priests, but currently not have them (church wiped out, hidden, or purposefully ended) as a means of continueing to operate in a Varn controlled population. It may be that Jeggal Sag purposefully only gave access to spirit magic so as to not be a threat to the Varn (or other Ssethric dieties) with the idea that that would improve the longevity of this following. It may be that an aspect of him worshipped by other races may grant divine magics. I would not worry too much about him not having non-Ssethric followers, as the same is true of Yig - except we know it's not. I would only assume that if Jeggal Sag is followed by other races, it is as an entirely different aspect.

_________________
AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 8:30 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 2109
Location: Portland OR
Yes. Jeggal Sagg has gotten "weirder" in this edition. Once upon a time in the original campaign he was supposed to be 1 of 12 children of Kassegore and Yig ... the semi-divine True Dragons. Now? That's a story that the new Ssethregore book implies (OOC) to be false. For that matter the True Dragons are supposedly more or less than what they seem too. Hard to know what "origin story" they are hiding or how that might affect how others see them ... I mean the primary thing about them is that they are flying lizards capable of leveling mountains single handedly. And that they are tougher than valinor. Hard to see that discovering that they have secretly been something like "infernal lords" or "elemental lords" or something else other than HUGE reptiles would make much difference. I have always assumed there is some kind of extra planar connection with the true dragons since they warred with the mostly extrapljnar Celestial Giants.

I haven't tried the idea that Jeggal Sagg is truly a god like Korlak but has chosen not to have real priests for strategic or tactical reasons. Probably not true, but kind of a neat idea.

Still leaves the question of what is Belisarda's relationship with beasts? And if there are primal spirits or "beast lords" associated with her.

_________________
Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:16 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1473
Hello,

val Holryn wrote:
YHard to see that discovering that they have secretly been something like "infernal lords" or "elemental lords" or something else other than HUGE reptiles would make much difference. I have always assumed there is some kind of extra planar connection with the true dragons since they warred with the mostly extrapljnar Celestial Giants.


I think you'd be surprised what they truly are.

There are still a lot of secrets to be uncovered, even after 20 years.

_________________
Best,

Henry Lopez
President
PCI


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 10:27 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 991
PCIHenry wrote:
I think you'd be surprised what they truly are.
There are still a lot of secrets to be uncovered, even after 20 years.


<insane ss'ressen peasant declares themselves a god>
<surprised when they find out their declaration has been approved by Yig>

_________________
LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Centurion Sword Sage II, T3.4
LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 2109
Location: Portland OR
Southernskies wrote:
PCIHenry wrote:
I think you'd be surprised what they truly are.
There are still a lot of secrets to be uncovered, even after 20 years.
<insane ss'ressen peasant declares themselves a god>
<surprised when they find out their declaration has been approved by Yig>
:P See, this is what I'm talking about. There *could* be a cool story here based on this idea, but in the end the idea that True Dragons are Ssethrics that have undergone a "Yig sanctioned apotheosis" doesn't really change the way I look at True Dragons much. Tears down mountains single handedly? Weakly aligned with Ssethregore? Check. Check.
PCIHenry wrote:
I think you'd be surprised what they truly are.
I look forward to the surprise! Its the unwrapping of mysteries that keeps me attached to the campaign world!

_________________
Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
To ride the side rail about True Dragon's away from the talk of Jeggal Sagg for a moment, let me just provide these tidbits (quoting from published texts is allowed, right? - if anyone would rather I didn't please let me know and I will delete)

First a quote from Pilgrimage Chapter 1, by BEAST, documenting the results of a private table
Quote:
A follower of Jeggal Sag BEAST met reported dreaming a Jeggal Sag induced dream, saying thus “I have dreamt of a great dragon, a dragon that has been imperiling little people up in the north. In my dream, some Disciples came together to try to control this horrible beast… and they failed. They failed because it is not a true dragon. All the tales we have heard of the dragons being the first born of Kassegore, it is a lie. Not all of them are. Only Jeggal Sag was. We have been told the story that all dragons come from Kassegore. That is a lie. They are not from here. They are not of here. They should not be here. I saw them travelling through a giant gate, similar to the portals that we used to use but much, much larger, and they came travelling through, following these giants. These eight giants. Many, many years ago. I have come to the great Beastmaser for guidance. For if we cannot control this great beast, how do we fight him?” This follower also indicated that Jeggal Sag did not fight alongside the dragons, but was mistook as one accidently by the Valinor.


Next is from the the heading for Astinax in the Dramatis Personae of the new Ssethregore book where it says the following about the True Dragon:
Quote:
One of four known True Dragons still in existence on Arcanis, Astinaxarathulumn, or Astinax as she is now called, suffered a near mortal wound during the waning days of the Dragon War from a celestial valinor. She crashed in the Kraldjur Morass, where she healed over the centuries, thanks to the ministrations of the nagas of House Kahss. Now, after many years of planning, her carefully crafted machinations to take control of the Ssethregoran Empire are ready to put in motion. All that stands in her way are the varn and their knowledge of what she and the rest of her kind truly are.


Third, we have this quote from Pg 247 of “Psionics Unbound” concerning the what the giants know of the Silence
Quote:
In the oldest and most obscure texts possessed by the Dwarves there is a small passage mentioning a race of “vermin and parasites that long dogged the steps of their ancient foes throughout their journey through the stars. Silent in word and deed the maddening gibbering of their thoughts told only of conquest and servitude to Oblivion.


So, tying these three sources together we can see
1. They are not from here, and they are not servants of Kassegore
2. They have some purpose or reason that the Varn would not like them
3. The dwarves noted that the silence followed in their wake.

To me, this makes a pretty strong case that they could be servants or tools of the Silence. I think it is less likely that they are true servants of the silence (Since we have seen nothing to indicate it) but maybe just sources of chaos and destruction sort of designed to go in front of the Silence and tear down existing defensive infrastructure to soften things up for the Silence.

I think it is actually unlikely they are direct Servants of the Silence because in a “Host Divided Against Itself” Villa’tavorentes kept its word to bathe the heroes in its blood if they freed it, saying, “My word is my bond.” One of the strongest possible followers of the Silence is known as “The Oathbreaker,” someone who could undo Sarishan oaths. Nothing I have seen has ever indicated that servants of the Silence have anything like honor when dealing with others, and thus this makes me question whether the True Dragons are servants of the Silence.

Thoughts?

Bonus question: from the quote from the new book - one of 4 known true dragons on Arcanis? Who are the 4? She wouldn't be counting Jeggal Sag so there is Astinax, Villa’tavorentes, and the undead dragon - who's the 4th?

_________________
AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:10 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
Posts: 144
Just really quick, the Dwarven text you mentioned is referring to the Voiceless Ones, not the Dragons.

_________________
With regards, signing out.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigismund Jupiter val'Holryn von Tralia


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
vandom43 wrote:
Just really quick, the Dwarven text you mentioned is referring to the Voiceless Ones, not the Dragons.


Yes and no. "parasites that long dogged the steps of their ancient foes" the Voiceless ones were the parasites. The ancient foes were the dragons. The celestial giants saw the voiceless ones as vermin, but they were vermin that were seen in proximity to True Dragons.

_________________
AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Jeggal Sagg (and Belisarda...)
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
Posts: 144
Ok, thanks for clarification.

_________________
With regards, signing out.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sigismund Jupiter val'Holryn von Tralia


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Moderators: james.zwiers, PCI Eric Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net & kodeki