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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:56 pm 
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val Holryn wrote:
I am well aware that the Silk Road followed many trails. I believe all the trade routes you suggest are there (though I think the road from Censure runs the other way).

I do not think that your alternitive explanation of the Great Trade route makes sense geographically. Censure has a permanent population of under 100,000 (and is the biggest city by far in the Hinterlands). It just isn't big enough to drive markets and pull goods up through Milandir and Almeric. It also doesn't make sense for an export port since there are multiple other ports where it would be faster and cheaper to get to along the way (Yarvik). It also doesn't make sense that House Zhuan has a strong Khitani influence (or that there is a Khitani Quarter in Censure) without direct Trade from Khitan. Further it's surrounded by the Pirate Isles, the biggest nest of scurvy sea dogs in the known world, who are preying on the SEABORNE goods. It doesn't make sense for the Pirate Isles to exist without a pile of rich trade coming into the region.

I no longer have the old Freeport mod on hand. My vague memory is that there was a something like a tsunami following the collapse of the Godswall but that might be wrong in my head. Regardless, even if the module says there's a sea wall blocking trade I think that's simply wrong.


You are correct in that Censure was a trading city and isn't just an endpoint of trade, but also the start point. Remember, the Hinterlands have a great deal of interesting things which would be of interest to others around the world. The Feldspar Hills presumably are rich in feldspar, there is obsidian and glass making products up there, the Pricklespur and even the Ganjiir Vale have strange animals and plants (and spices and incense), and there is rich fishing off the coast of the the entire region.

As to why Censure became such a major center of trade? Who knows, though it might have something to do with what is around it. The Pirate Isles are actually quite rich in resources and are almost absurdly temperate despite their far northern climate (there are drugs apparently only grown in Salantis that also grow in the Pirate Isles), but lack anything resembling a unifying power. The Skohir of Jappa are excellent seamen, but primarily represent a warrior tradition similar to the Vikings, which trade occasionally and raid the rest of the time. The Takomir of Pearlspar are primarily horsemen that have adapted to living near the coast after they settled in the area when the God's Wall went up.

Now, in the middle of all this is a Coryani dominate Penal colony, acting as the primary hub of Imperial power in the region. Unlike Sicaris, which was a mountain (or, at least in the foothills of mountains) fort which they made agreements with Vanomir, Censure was Coryani through and through. It was a naval station for what was almost certainly the most powerful navy in the region (Coryan), and as their primary base in the region became a port of call for pretty much every ship in around. Pearlspar was too small, Jappa too far away, and Freeport too. . . chaotic. As such, if they wanted to pull resources out of the region, they'd pull them out of Censure.

Now, remember that Censure is also the only widely cultivated region in the entire Hinterlands. Nowhere else is there such excessive farming, because the Coryani had to support their prisoner population. It wasn't economical to import food from the south there, so they put a lot of efforts into the farms. Because of this, Censure is the ONLY agricultural power in all of the Hinterlands. This food supply allowed them to support a massive population compared to Edgefort/Sicaris, Mil Takara, and even Pearlspar and Jappa which could get their food from the sea. Add to this the cheap (read: Slave) labour of the prisoners there, and Censure had all the makings of a major regional power despite its relative isolation.

Then there is one other thing that you must remember: Opium.

Leaving aside all of the 'legitimate' products that can be pulled from the Hinterlands, opium is probably its most profitable export. Opium creates its own market once introduced, and for a realtively compact cargo can pull in a LOT of money. Since Censure is the primary producer of opium in the Known Lands (it is mentioned nowhere else in the Coryani regions, aside from the First City), this suggests that most of the opium in the Known Lands comes from here. This means lots of money would flood into the city compared to Jappa and Pearlspar, and even the den of inequity of Freeport--also a major trading port in the region to rival Censure despite its chaotic politics--cannot keep up to this.

Another thing to consider about Censure is slaves. Slavery is legal in Censure, and does not appear to be a major industry in other Hinterlands ports. This means that if the Crimson Slavers or the pirates of Magra want to sell off their 'take', they would have to call at Censure at some point as the biggest market in the area. Even moreso, Censure does not impose restrictions on Ymandragore, which means that there is a lot of barter going on between those two powers as well.

You are correct that Yarrvik and Naeraanth are closer to the 'Coryani Market', but that doesn't mean they have what the Coryani want. Trade routes can go VERY far afield to get the resources in demand. From Censure, they can export these Hinterlands Goods more readily than Pearlspar and Jappa, and from there they can send them via land routes or by ship to ports along the east coast (Naeraanth, Yarrvik, Savona, Sulphecci, Midake, Plexus, etc). Because there are inland trade goods, there is a 'northern trade route' to service them, with outposts like Sicaris.

As to the Zhuan. . . this also kind of boggles my mind. I can think of two major sources for such noticeable (and, among the Known Lands, almost unique) presence of Khitani settlement:

1) The Zhuan actually started their life as prisoners in Censure. The penal colony was founded around the same time as the First Coryani-Khitani War, and surely at least some POW's were kept around by the Coryani. Many likely became slaves in the Empire, but it is possible at least some of them were sent up to Censure. From here, over the centuries, the ethnic Khitani population retained at least a vestage of their culture, and when the Silent Coup happened, the Zhuan had established enough of a presence to become one of the Six Noble Houses.

2) After the 1st War, trade resumed through the First City. This brought Silk and other exotic goods from the west, and at least some of these goods would be brought into the region by Khitani nationals. These nationals would likely seek trade in many of the larger cities of the Coryani Empire until the SECOND Coryani-Khitani War started up. Unlike the 1st War, this 2nd War brought Coryan to its lowest ebb. It was fought for decades and pushed the fight right to the walls of Grand Coryan itself. At this point, Milandir was still part of the Empire, which means that the people of Coryan and Milandisia (who would have the most contact with Khitan) would probably not look at Khitani traders very nicely, which could have resulted in pogroms against the Khitani merchants in those areas. Censure, on the other hand, was at this time a pseudo-independent state, kind of doing its own thing under the eagle of Coryan. As the Alabaster Throne's attention looked to the west, nobody was looking or caring about Censure in the north east. The few Khitani merchants there might have been tossed in prison as part of the war, but overall there was probably a lot less fervor against the Khitani (especially since the Khur Gi actually have some Khitani blood in them). This lasted until the Silent Coup, when the Zhuan had enough power to become one of the top six powers.

In terms of the Zhuan, I cannot say for certain. I have only guesses until Henry writes more about them.

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Last edited by Nierite on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:59 pm 
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Dante wrote:
2. Did the recent restoration of the Gods' Wall at the end of the 6th Crusade of Light also restore the Wall of Yarris? If not, is anything now stopping the Infernals from just sailing to get around the Gods' Wall?


From what I understand, the "Gods Wall" that was built at the end of the Crusade by the Dragosi dreamers was actually the Tir Betoqi Wall. While impressive, it is just that: A wall. There does not appear to be anything (that I've read) mystical about it beyond the fact it was partially made by dreams.

In terms of things blocking travel from the north by sea, I should also point out that we know there IS fairly new sea travel from the north, as a fleet of Skoi refugees were fleeing Frost Giants recently. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:47 pm 
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I can see that I'm not going to persuade you so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the lack of the godswall blocking infernals reaching the sea go back and look at Tukufu's report from the table of A Drink, A Dance, A Knife...

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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:57 pm 

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The question of the Zhuan and the Khitani influence in the Hinterlands did raise another question for me that I had missed in my initial read through of the Blessed Lands books- The presence of the Khitani descendents throughout the Hinterlands, the Auxunites, and the Haina. I know that some of those are descended from or related to each other, but obviously at one time there was significant flow of Khitani into the area - by what path did they come if not through the blessed lands? The blessed lands history does not detail any such migration of people, or passage of troops as this, and I would suspect that they would have noticed! :) So how did this migration occur?

Stories seem to indicate that before the Wall of the God's went up there was a path from Khitani territory, north of the Vastwood through what is now the Sealed Lands, that connected down into the Hinterlands and through there to Milandir. Has any of that been opened back up by the fall of the Godswall Mountains, and their replacement by a mere Dwarven Wall? After all, the former Mountains were 100's of miles thick of magical impassability. Now there is a magical and manufactured wall, what, at most 300-400 feet thick? That leaves a lot of room open - much of it potentially on the non-infernally infested side. Might there be a new (or very old) route to Khitan available (again)? And wouldn't that potential route go past a place rumored to have a new pillar of Nier? Inquiring minds want to know!

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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:02 am 
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They came overland from the North. This is covered in Legacy of Damnation. Pre demons it was a giant grassland you could ride horses over.

I'm pretty sure LoD also refers to sailors reporting giant spider webs along the East Coast of the sealed lands which would discount the alleged Yaricite Wall from an old campaign soft point. Sadly I can't find my copy. =\

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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:10 am 

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Interesting point...map makers used to out in phantom towns/rivers/roads, etc. to prevent people from copying their work. Plus, the only way to make a map prior to satellite imagery was to have some poor schmucks go someplace and draw something out. We know much of Arcanis is written with deliberate bias built in, should we really expect the maps to be different? (I really don't know, just a thought I had while reading the thread)

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 Post subject: Re: Catalog of Western Lands
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:23 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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mighty28 wrote:
Interesting point...map makers used to out in phantom towns/rivers/roads, etc. to prevent people from copying their work. Plus, the only way to make a map prior to satellite imagery was to have some poor schmucks go someplace and draw something out. We know much of Arcanis is written with deliberate bias built in, should we really expect the maps to be different? (I really don't know, just a thought I had while reading the thread)


Well, the new Nol Dappan built wall does extend from the shore of the sea north of Khitan east to the Pale Sea, does it not? Are there access/support roads along the wall for the movement of troops and supplies? Would these not also work as a new trade route to Khitan? Are the Khitani doing anything to help supply or fortify the dwarves on their end of the wall, or the Elorii north of the Vastwood? I would think all parties would agree they have a vested interest in keeping the wall intact, though I doubt the Elorii are helping.

I don't know what the new map shows, the draft zoom in with roads and rivers labelled was cut off short of the wall, I had thought the labelled map might extend out to show more of the known lands (light the sealed lands and Khitan) when it goes draft to final, but we haven't seen a final yet.

The larger map shows the godswall mountains still extending most the way to the unknown northern sea, but there are several large spurs running off of it, and it isn't clear if the area the entire area north of the godswall mountains is "sealed lands" since one of those spurs really seems to mark the western boundary of what we consider the sealed lands. The lands west of that spur, but north of the godswall range is currently all one big question mark.

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