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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:58 pm 
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I do not believe convention judges should get something completely unbalanced to the mods that they are judging, because then it throws off the power curve of the campaign (more than it is). That said, if there are items in the mod which there is a reasonable chance of the GM picking up if they were playing, they should get that item (or a reasonable percentage of its market price).

Another option, which I know has been done, is offer 'special tables' where the GM's get to make decisions such as the BI judges for the 6th year deciding who is the new Emperor, Matriarch, etc. Give them an XP reward, a favour, or something fairly low-level but unique, and I think that is also a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Alessia Val'Mehan wrote:
IMO ignore the people who believe that by rewarding your judges your creating a special group of people its BS. Anyone can become a convention judge and join that group if they are willing to put in the time and effort and often cash, they deserve it!


That point in my post was only about John's suggestion #5 (giving judges priority to sit at the "prime" tables run by Henry, Pedro, etc). I'm all for awarding judges in such a way that it will cause more people to GM both at cons and at home (as the rest of my post made clear).

I may or may not ever judge for Arcanis for very similar reasons to yours. The only time I get to play Arcanis is at cons (I can find groups for other games to play in but not Arcanis).

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
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Location: Portland OR
Since I already judge a lot at Cons I'm not sure how much this applies to me. Unless Tony has plans to retire me and other workhorses? For the time being, to be safe, maybe I'm not joining him on tours to a glue factory. :P

The first Arcanis BI I judged was way back at Enpyben where I met Hat among others for the first time ... and did bad bad things to his character (and the rest of his loyalist table.) Though I guess he still talks to me at cons so it must not have been that bad.

I continue to judge a lot of (though certainly not all) special events. Mostly this is because I've never had a bad experience judging a special event. The players always appreciate that you took the time to run everything. I go home with a sense of satisfaction for doing "something" well that was a little more demanding than usual. And as a judge I often go home with a deeper understanding of the event than i would have as a player. All pluses right there.

I don't entirely recall but I don't think the judges got anything for doing Enpyben...except that I think we probably got the same rewards as other recorded on a log sheet. That was fine with me. Sort of like a val in the campaign, I don't think you're *supposed* to lobby for big rewards up front...though like any greedy adventure I also appreciate swag and character bling from the organizers when I get it. But I'd like to think I'm primarily motivated to serve the campaign. I wouldn't stop judging if swag or bling dried up.

Njal Val'Assante wrote:
...snip...although suggestions like they should all get to play Valinor or elder elorii will likely end up dismissed as unfeasible.


Wait was this even halfway on the table? I take it all back! And you think too small! The reward I want is ... to play Kassegore...
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Last edited by val Holryn on Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:16 am 
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Only if I get to play Hurrian...or maybe Beltine... :lol: like that's gonna happen. Imagine a Larp where will all get to play the REAL power players--the Gods and other mucho powerful entities. Talk about actions having consequences! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 802
Location: Michigan
For normal modules I think that GMs should get full rewards for the module if they are eating it. There should never be a punishment for eating a module.

For special events judging, that becomes even more critical. I have never judged Arcanis, and I figure I am right in the target audience for these changes, as I was a frequent convention judge back in 3.5, but have yet to judge even once since starting the new system. I feel that it is my duty my judge and give back to the great GMs and campaign that I've already gotten so much from. I'm certainly not ready to judge at a convention yet since I haven't even judged at home yet, but I suspect that since I will be making it to Origins, that I might be judging those modules back home for people who can't make it whenever those modules do come out for homeplay.

So when I am ready, will I judge conventions? Its a hard question. I feel like I should, but the think I absolutely love the most in a campaign is when you get to do the crazy things the modules did expect or allow for - and the only place you can do that is the campaign administered events. Want to try to eat a Malfean soul? Probably not going to happen in a home mod, but if I can get my character up to tier where it is reasonable he might know how to, and play a special where we encounter a malfean I can get off alone, I expect to try! So I hate to think I'm losing all that chaos making goodness by judging (even though it gives so many others the change to make chaos).

So, not only do I think that judges should get full rewards for modules they eat (including specials), it seems to me that after a campaign staff run event they should either get a special table, or they should be able to report in (if they want), "I would have done this" and have the campaign staff react to it appropriately. Obviously this has its limits, since they can't have done anything that would have retconnned the entire event, but it still seems like they should have the opportunity to dig their characters into deeper trouble if they want... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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I have an extreme dislike of formalized Judge rewards that add to a characters power level, I think the intentionally ludicrous posts on this thread have done well to highlight the slippery slope that comes with the possible rewards. There are good ways to reward Judges, but not add to character Powers.

Informal rewards for people that go above and beyond, thats a whole different story, if you get something because you are actually appreciated and people notice what you do it means an infinite amount more than some mechanical reward (just ask an invisible king)

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:37 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
I have an extreme dislike of formalized Judge rewards that add to a characters power level, I think the intentionally ludicrous posts on this thread have done well to highlight the slippery slope that comes with the possible rewards. There are good ways to reward Judges, but not add to character Powers.

Informal rewards for people that go above and beyond, thats a whole different story, if you get something because you are actually appreciated and people notice what you do it means an infinite amount more than some mechanical reward (just ask an invisible king)

If you have a person come to a convention, using their vacation time and paying their own travel costs, and then that person spends (in many cases) virtually the entire convention judging adventures for you, I would argue that this person is making a huge contribution to your campaign.

I realize that there are many people who live near conventions, but on average it costs me somewhere around $800 just to get to the door of the convention hall. Now, I'm a selfish guy and prefer to play modules at a convention instead of judging, but there are lots of people who travel a long distance and still spend a ridiculous amount of time judging.

As a player who appreciates having judges at a convention, I have absolutely no problem if that person receives a little extra for his own character, even if it does threaten the all mighty 'power curve'. I know that if I devoted all that time to help PCI and only received a firm handshake and a pat on the back, I'd be a little put out.

Any convention needs a reliable group of judges, or the games don't get run. Lets ensure that the rewards are worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:08 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
I have an extreme dislike of formalized Judge rewards that add to a characters power level, I think the intentionally ludicrous posts on this thread have done well to highlight the slippery slope that comes with the possible rewards. There are good ways to reward Judges, but not add to character Powers.

Informal rewards for people that go above and beyond, thats a whole different story, if you get something because you are actually appreciated and people notice what you do it means an infinite amount more than some mechanical reward (just ask an invisible king)


I'm curious which posts you feel are intentionally ludicrous (I think we all know playing a deity was a joke). I found most suggestions to be along the lines of "they earn what a player could have earned" and some out of character rewards. There were a few suggestions for extra runes and magic items, which I don't consider ludicrous if the GMs aren't getting the in-adventure rewards already.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Akira I think you and I are coming at this from different directions, let me make clear some of the assumptions that I'm making.

- Large conventions have their own built in non character perks (Rooms/ Badges)
- One time events (LARPS/ BIs) have a full reward attached to them for the judges

now this are a bit trickier
- In a comunity its fair to take turns being the Judge (and eating the mod)
- Arcanis is a comunity
- people that spend more "effort" to get to the convention (in terms of time/money/effort) justifably should be more on the player side of the table
- Conversely, people that spend less "effort" should make up a larger percentage of the judges (and I find this to be true for the most part)

AND THIS IS THE TRICKIEST PART
- people that are swayed by "in character rewards" of the type that adds to a characters power level are not the people that I want as a judge.

- people that are swayed by character rewards that are cosmetic or provide alternate character base options (aka race / background / unique backstories) I am neutral on (ok I lean to favoring them, but I do so emotionally rather than logically)

- people that judge because they enjoy judging, are the ideal judges, helping people find this spot is a personal goal of mine, and every person has a differnt amount of preperation, rules familiarity (confidence?) and available spoons (see spoon theory) that makes for a good judging situation for them.

- people that are judging to get a free something, this is the staple of judges at larger conventions, sometimes they over extend them selves, sometimes they are just learning, not the best, but I'm still neutral


So in the context of those assumtions (and opinions) I restate: I dislike the idea of formalized judge rewards that add to a characters power level. I think there are other, better options if there is an insistance to incentivize judges. Rather I think there is a whole set of related questions that could be pursued that might get better results (depending on the refinement of the the original question)

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 Post subject: Re: Judge Incentives
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:32 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Harliquinn wrote:
I'm curious which posts you feel are intentionally ludicrous (I think we all know playing a deity was a joke).
John


intentionally ludicrous in this case means the same thing as a joke, you understood correctly the ideas I was pointing at.


The slippery slope is there are quite a few things out there that poeople would point at and say I want to play one of those lets take Agamassi for example (mind you since they are a kickstarter reward they are off the table as a potential reward)

Franz judges all the mods for X, Y and Z conventions and _earns_ the right to play an Agamassi, his buddy Hanz, Greta and Jules all are sad they dont have Agamassi so they Judge all the things for the next year so they can play an Agamassi too. and thus a new standard is born , and the rewards are then adjusted down the line to account for this new norm.

the point of highlighting that particular slippery slope is not so that it can be avoided, but rather so that it can be managed. I point back at those intentionally ludicrous diversions, given a sufficiently accelerated set of rewards over the years (accelerated down that slippery slope) how soon would it take for rewards to look like people are playing the gods them selves?

The answer to that rhetorical question should be never in a million years. If you start looking into the power levels that are inherently built into the system (look at items in FiM that give bonii based on character Tier)

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