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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:10 am 
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Somebody check my math on this, but John mentioned 5-6 skills per Tier for an Expert. I may be missing something but you can take +1 to all trained skills, +1 to 3+Passive Logic Value to any skills, and +1 to 3+Passive Logic Value to a selected list of skills. That's 3 ranks so far. You might be able to pick up a rank from a Path if your lucky and maybe a point or 2 from some other advancement (at work without books). But it seems like that's shorting other vital things like increasing defenses, attibutes and talents. Those who know me know I'm a big fan of the balanced character who can contribute in and out of combat. To me the best advancement scheme for any character per tier is like this (when you take them is up to you):

+1 to all Trained skills
+2 to all defenses
a Path if one is desired
+1 to 2 Attributes
+1 to 2 Attributes (different)
Any two Talents you qualify for
Any two Talents based on Archetype (2 Learn Martial Techniques for the fighter for example)
+1 to 3+Passive Logice Value skills (any)
+1 to 3+Passive Logic Value skills (based on archetype)
+1 to the 3 skills for the Archetype (Arcane/Divine)

This seems like a logical package of advancements to me. If somebody had a better one let me know so I can take advantage of it. :)

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:13 am 

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Hat wrote:
I have responded to John privately. As he has posted his message to me, I will simply comment that I don't agree with his starting point regarding experts.

In order to remain civil and not get too frustrated with this entire line of thought, I'm bowing out of the discussion. I've poured hours and hours into analysis and carefully constructed arguments as neutrally presented as I can make them.


I've also poured many hours of analysis into Arcanis mechanics (it's part of how I learn a new system) and I fall much closer to John's view than to yours. Is Expert really good for a wide range of builds? Yes. Is it broken? No, there are tradeoffs. Is Martial broken? No but the balance between caster and non-caster might be (which to me is a completely different issue that should be fixed in a different way if it is a problem). I may be missing something but, to me, the closest to broken Archetype is Divine (as I said before, I have yet to find a character build that is better mechanically as a Divine rather than Expert).

I do think Divine/Arcane need to have their skill advancements combined so they only need 1 advancement for their archetype skills (and so not every Arcane has deceit and stealth near-max).

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:17 pm 

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wilcoxon wrote:
I've also poured many hours of analysis into Arcanis mechanics (it's part of how I learn a new system) and I fall much closer to John's view than to yours.


Great! Please post the analysis.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:54 pm 

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I must admit that I got cross-eyed with all the math midway through the first page of the thread. So my opinion may be less educated than the rules scholars. But as one who has also spent hundreds of hours on PC creation, I thought I would toss in my 2 coppers.

To me, the mechanics are merely a vehicle to building a concept. i find that the martial build and the arcane builds force me into classical "classes" than the divine or the expert builds do. Of the four the expert permits the greatest flexibility to do things that you can't do in a class based system. I think it is this very form of customization that gives the Expert Archtype its relative power. It is after all a blank slate for your background and path to sit on.

Were I to "FIX" anything about the martial archetype it would be to give more flexibility of marshal builds. To do this take the choice of three talents of diehard, leadership, or LMT and change it to your choice of leadership or any combat talent. I'd leave the arcane and archtype alone as I see no way to "fix" the creations options without upping the mechanical power level.

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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:05 pm 
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From talking with Paul and listening to others, there appears to be two general lines of discussion going on in parallel.

1) Magic is more powerful than martial maneuvers/fighting styles. It's hard to refute this at a large scale, but in general, it is something that almost every system has struggled with. I think D&D 4e was one of the few systems that really balanced the two in terms of 'scale'. Regardless of how you viewed the game, it was clear that a magic using character and a fighter had powers that were a lot more close in power than most other games. Outside of a few spells that really just can't be duplicated by mundane means without a huge suspension of disbelief (Teleportation, Invisibility, etc.), the disparity between damage, status effects, and affecting multiple targets really shrunk in that edition.

In Arcanis, the combat maneuvers and fighting styles for higher tiers really need some improvement to apply more status effects/debuffs or do more damage. Combined with the maneuvers that target multiple creatures could really go a long way towards this.

In addition, I think Martial Characters (and Martial Only) should have more options such as maneuvers or Talents to let them delay or reduce recovery on maneuvers. My other post has a proposal for a unique Talent given to Martials that reduces Recovery on Advanced Maneuvers by 1 for Martial Characters. Also I assume that casters know that they can't Delay Strain over and over again and after the first use have to do something else, cast through it (taking damage) or spend Fate to remove it?

2) The second issue being discussed appears to be whether Experts are overpowered with the ability to take the same Combat options as a Martial or gain casting like an Arcane/Divine. That's the one I'd like to address with some character building examples.

ASSUMPTIONS:
A) For simplicity, I'm not taking into consideration Race, Nation or Path specifics that would give Talents or Melee, Ranged, or Arcanum Skills. Those are so varied special cases that should augment a core Archetype / Background build.
B) I'm assuming a stat of 5 (d8) in a secondary ability and 7 (d10) in a primary ability, regardless of combat or casting.
C) I'm assuming a character will Max out the Skills needed for their role (Arcanum, Melee, Ranged) or those given by advancements to really focus
D) I'm limiting Background choices to those that even improve casting or combat, since that's the main focus of the comparison.
E) I'm considering only the "Any 2 Talents", "+1 to All Trained Skills", and "+1 to 3+Passive Logic Trained Skills (using 6 skills)" Advancements. Variations are possible for specialized builds.

ARCANE CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Prestidigitation / Arcane Spell Casting I
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Light), 2 Weapon Training
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Spells: 5 Universal Spells, 5 Tier I Spells
Maxed Skills: Arcanum, Deceit, Stealth, 2 Lore Skills. This leaves 1 other skill to keep Maxed based upon other character goals.

Advancements
Fixed Talents: Arcane Spell Casting II/III/IV/V and 1 Arcanum Talent per Tier
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Arcanum, Stealth, Deceit, 3 Lore Skills (They get more Lore Skills with the advancement but can't keep them all maxed)
Variation: In order to increase a combat skill at 2 Ranks / Tier, the caster needs to make a tradeoff by losing a Maxed Lore Skill.

Summary: An Arcane Caster gets Full Casting (Tier I-V), 5 Arcanum Talents to enhance casting, and Maxed Arcanum Skill (3 / Tier). In addition, they can have Stealth, Deceit, and 2 Lore Skills maxed (3 / Tier) along with a Combat Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier
- Combat Capabilities: Now has full, flexible casting and a Combat Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier and can get Weapon Mastery (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Lore Skills they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for more combat skill ranks.

DIVINE CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Prestidigitation / Divine Spell Casting I
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Deity), Weapon Training (Deity)
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Spells: 5 Universal Spells, 5 Tier I Spells
Maxed Skills: Arcanum, Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, 1 Combat Skill, 1 Social Skill. This leaves 1 other skill to keep Maxed based upon other character goals.

Advancements
Fixed Talents: Divine Spell Casting II/III/IV/V and 1 Devout Talent per Tier
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Arcanum, Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, 3 Social Skills
Variation: In order to increase a combat skill at 2 Ranks / Tier, the caster needs to make a tradeoff by losing a Maxed Social Skill. However, due to having a Combat Skill from archetype and the appropriate background, it's easy for a Divine Character to keep a Combat Skill at roughly 2.5 Ranks / Tier (12 Ranks over 5 Tiers)

Summary: A Divine Caster gets Full Casting (Tier I-V), 5 Devout Talents to enhance casting, and Maxed Arcanum Skill (3 / Tier). In addition, they can have Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, and 2 Social Skills maxed (3 / Tier) along with a Combat Skill at 2.5 Ranks / Tier
- Combat Capabilities: Now has full, flexible casting and a Combat Skill at 2.5 Ranks / Tier, potentially Medium or Heavy Armor, and can get Weapon Mastery (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Social Skills they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for more combat skill ranks.

EXPERT CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Adaptable (Most choose this), 1 Skill Talent
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Light), 3 Weapon Training (2 Nation / 1 Any)
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Maxed Skills: Any 6 non-Combat/non-Arcanum Skills (Arcanum/Combat only with Adaptable).

Advancements
Fixed Talents: 2 Skill Talents
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Any 6 Skills
Variations:
A) Combat Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on combat, they will need to dedicate 1 Talent / Tier to Weapon Mastery (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to a Combat Skill. Obviously, focusing on more than 1 weapon takes additional Talents and Skills.
B) Magic Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on magic, they will need to dedicate at least 1 starting Talent to Prestidigation and 1 Talent / Tier for Spell Casting (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to an Arcanum Skill.
Both of these options leave 1 Talent / Tier to spend on non-Skill Talents and 5 Maxed Skills for rounding out the skill portion of the character. The character can have the basics of either combat or casting, keeping maxed skills but lacking the extra Talents that go to really expanding the casting options of the Caster or the combat flexibility of the Martial.
A+B) Combat Focus with Magic Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on combat and casting, they will need to dedicate 2 Talents / Tier to Weapon Mastery and Spell Casting and 2 Skills / Tier to the appropriate Arcanum and Combat Skills.
This option leaves only 2 Skill Talents / Tier and 4 Maxed Skills for rounding out the skill portion of the character. While the character has the basics of both combat and magic, they differ from a Caster learning Combat or a Martial learning magic by 1 Skill Rank / Tier in the associated combat or casting skill.

Summary: Experts focus on Combat can keep 1 Combat Skill maxed and gain Weapon Mastery (I-V) with 1 weapon without impacting their usefulness as Skill characters. Those who focus on Magic can keep 1 Arcanum Skill maxed and gain Spell Casting (I-V) without impacting their usefulness as Skill characters. In either situation the character is as competent as either a Caster or Martial but lacks the breadth and flexibility of either. The Expert can gain that flexibility but at the cost of talents and/or skills devoted to being a better skill character.
- Duel Focus: Experts can focus on both Combat and Casting wit Weapon Mastery (I-V) and Spell Casting (I-V) but at the cost of using all the non-Skill Talents and 2 Skills / Tier. This will impact their usefulness as Skill characters and does not give them the breadth or flexibility of either option. This type of build has the same capabilities as a Martial Archetype taking casting, or a Caster Archetype taking combat but is 1 Rank / Tier ahead of those builds.

MARTIAL CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Advanced Armor Training and 2 of Die Hard, Leadership, or a Martial Technique
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (All Nation, ~8), Weapon Training (All Nation, ~12)
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Combat: 1-2 Maneuvers, 1-2 Weapon Mastery I
Maxed Skills: 6 Combat or Physical Skills, and potentially Heal.

Advancements
Fixed Talents: 2 Martial Techniques and 2 Combat Talents
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): 6 Combat or Physical Skills
Variation:
A) Magic Focus: If a Martial wants to focus on magic, they will need to dedicate at least 1 starting Talent to Prestidigation and 1 Talent / Tier for Spell Casting (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to an Arcanum Skill. This leaves 1 Talent / Tier for anything, and 5 Skills for Combat or Physical Skills. The Arcanum will be 1 Rank / Tier behind a full caster or Expert choosing casting. This should be sufficient for many good buff spells or base spells.

Summary: A Martial Character easily can get 1 Weapon Mastery (I-V), 10 Maneuvers, and a Fighting Style (I-V) over 5 Tiers. This leaves 10 Talents to further enhance combat or devote to skills or magic.
- Magic Capabilities: Now has full, flexible combat maneuvers with several weapons and an Arcanum Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier and can get full Spell Casting (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Physical or Combat they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for additional non-combat skill ranks.

------

Whew, I hope this all makes sense. I think there is room to give each Archetype something 'special' and limited that other Archetypes can't poach. I also think Magic right now overshadows combat at the higher tiers. However, I don't feel that the Expert archetype is the 'god' it is sometimes made out to be. They are flexible, yes, but that flexibility means they can't be as fully capable in either magic or combat like those archetypes can.

I'm open to discussion around what I've posted and hope that my analysis is at least factual.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:35 pm 
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Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
Somebody check my math on this, but John mentioned 5-6 skills per Tier for an Expert. I may be missing something but you can take +1 to all trained skills, +1 to 3+Passive Logic Value to any skills, and +1 to 3+Passive Logic Value to a selected list of skills. That's 3 ranks so far. You might be able to pick up a rank from a Path if your lucky ...snip...


John is saying you get to max out 5 or 6 skills at three ranks each per tier (plus maybe Path, Sabbatical etc etc).
.
.
.
As an exercise...As I calculate it, the absolute maximum number of skill ranks you could have in a given skill at the end of Tier 2 would be 13 ranks. 4 base, 3 increases @ tier 1, 3 increases @ tier 2, 2 increases for Paths in both tiers (improbable in real designs but you could take Pit Fighter and Myrmidon for +1 to melee each time), and finally 1 for Sabbatical). That's 4 higher than the base line mechanics of 9 (base 3, 6 increases over 2 Tiers) which means (for melee) you don't miss much. That's probably overkill in melee (especially with other things like WM 1 or tactical edge...). A caster would have an absolute maximum of 12 ranks (only one bump from a Path is possible for arcanum)...the ranks would help your passive casting in this case which would be a big deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:45 pm 
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I thought Sabbatical was banned or at least restricted???

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:48 pm 
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Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
I thought Sabbatical was banned or at least restricted???


Continued Training was banned.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:55 pm 
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For some reason I thought they both were. My bad. Considering there are 31 pages of Errata and Clarifications sometimes I miss things. :(

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:04 pm 
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It's okay. I've missed some errata Before, like the change to recovery on Advanced Maneuvers.

That said, I welcome thoughts on my presentation of comparing the archetypes.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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