Harliquinn wrote:
<snip>
From your other thread:
Hat wrote:
Arcane <snip>They are sages, healers, scouts and more.
I think you're spot on here for the most part. From a spells perspective, the ability to make Advanced Spells is also a great flexibility that allows Arcane Casters to make combinations of other spells (adding to their repertoire). From a Skills perspective, Arcane Archetypes can keep up to 12 Skills Maxed (Arcanum, Deceit, Stealth, and the 9 Lore Skills - Granted Knowledge has sub-skills). However, unaided, their AR is generally going to be low, as will their AV (due to not having shields usually).
No. Your statement here is misleading. Arcane archetypes have a choice of 12 skills (not including sub-skills) maxed. They can keep probably 6 or 7 maxed out. A wide variety of Knowledge skills show up in most mods. While they're all sub-types, they provide a lot of range across various circumstances. The typical difference in AR between Light and Heavy armor is 2 points. Spells such as Body of the Warrior grant an increase of AR as one of 5 potential starting spells. Inertial Shield is available to Psions and SSPs. Ebon Armor and Shield are both available to Elder casters. I'm sure there are more.
In terms of AV, many martial types don't use shields (archers, muskateers, two-weapon fighters, two-handed fighters). Adding a shield caps base weapon damage at d8. Useful, but there's a trade-off.
Harliquinn wrote:
Hat wrote:
Divine <snip>They also excel at social skills, deep knowledge of religion and a skill core to the god they follow.
Again, pretty spot on but without the ability to create Advanced Spells. I've never seen the actual divine benefit of casting spells quickly (as explained in the text), so that would have been an advantage they had as well. From a Skills perspective, Divine Archetypes can keep up to 8 Skills Maxed (Arcanum, Knowledge Religion, Deity Skill, and the 5 Social Skills). Their AV and AR can be middle of the road due to wearing medium armor many times and carrying shields sometimes (Though this could be a problem when casting).
Again, the number of skills to max out is limited to probably 6 or 7 of 8 choices, assuming they want to have virtually no other skills of note. Everything else advances +1/Tier.
While the Divine casters can't mix spells together, there are enough adaptations to power up the spells as they go.
Armor for the gods range from none to heavy, so an armor comparison really depends on which deity. Altheres, Beltine, Hurrian, Illir, Neroth, Nier, Sarish and Yarris all have access to heavy armor from the start through "Any Cuirass." AR and AV can be boosted by Benediction of the Gods and Inertial Shield for all Divine Casters easily hitting +2 AR and +3 AV in Tier 2 as autocast.
Harliquinn wrote:
Hat wrote:
Experts - skill mastery both in and out of combat. Easily able to master combat, spell casting or both. <snip>
Pretty spot on as well. I think the issue here is Experts *must* range into either Spellcasting or Combat as Skills alone aren't a viable character. So their ability to do one or the other very well or both with some competence seems to be what the system is driving towards. From a Skills Perspective, Experts can keep any skill maxed depending on their build. Their AV is generally good but their AR tends to be lower than Divine but higher than Arcane as they generally wear Light armor.
I agree they must pick up at least a combat skill or spellcasting to be useful in combat. Experts start with 3 trained weapons, one of which can be anything regardless of whether it's National or not. So they can select the preferred weapon at the start without an additional investment. At no more investment than the skill points, their non-casting attack is fairly comparable damage-wise to the Martial's attack waiting for recovery to end. At the same level of talent investment, the Expert is identical to the Martial for this time frame. When the Expert invests in Martial Techniques their damage during their respective downtimes starts equaling or exceeding the Martial's base attack. Remember, this is the Experts OFF attack burning off strain.
Likewise on the casting side the Expert could invest in Prestidigitation and T1 spell casting with no further talent expenditures. That Elemental Bolt at Tier 5 is potent, far more so than the Martial's base attack plus 2 talents. For the cost of Prestidigitation, A/DSC I - V and keeping 2 skills maxed (arcanum and weapon) they maintain their relevance in combat. Shine? Maybe, maybe not. Now, what do they have left to work with to contribute? 4 or 5 maxed out skills of their choice. Up to 20 additional secondary skills added across the tiers ranging from +7 to +11. This doesn't even include all of the other skills they start with. Half of their "Choose any 2 Talents" option and all of their Skill Talents. Taking 2 of those other talents can get them to heavy armor if that's their primary concern.
So, for a minimum investment they cover combat, casting - both in and out of combat, and still have their specialty area to shine in.
Harliquinn wrote:
Hat wrote:
Martial <snip>While they can add flexibility at 2 ranks / tier, all other Archetypes have the same and if they do, it's at the expense of other combat skills. Nothing at all compares to the spell casting.
I think you're shortchanging Martial Archetypes a bit on their combat survival and contributions. They start with a unique ability "Advanced Armor Training" which really supports their role as tanks/front line fighters giving them higher AR and AV (Due to shields).
It's not unique. Squires gain it. Using that as a justification, I expect to see other new backgrounds add it as well. It's frustrating. In the end though the talent grants +1 AV and +5' Pace. Nice, but not earth-shattering. As for AV, I've covered that above.
Harliquinn wrote:
From a Skills Perspective, Martial Archetypes can keep up to 13 Skills Maxed (2 Combat, 4 Melee, 3 Ranged, and 4 Physical).
No. Again, they have a choice of up to 13 skills to pick from but will likely only be able to keep at most 6 or 7 maxed. Again they'd have to make choices of whether they want all of their other skills to advance at just +1/Tier.
Harliquinn wrote:
Out of combat, those skills may have less use, but the other skills a Martial has certainly don't go to waste.
Their out of combat options are limited to Acrobatics, Athletics, Ride and Stealth. Keeping those maxed out leaves 2 or 3 total skills to keep their weapon skills, Mettle and Battle skills maxed and leaves no room for any other skills at 2 ranks / tier. If they branch out to non-physical combat skills, the chances of them having any of the 4 non-combat skills maxed out is greatly diminished. At 2 ranks per tier they're on par with all of the other archetypes. All Arcane characters and Divine worshipers of Cadic can max out Stealth. Every archetype except Martial can keep at least one social skill maxed (Arcane - Deceit, Divine - Any, Expert - Any). This means that the hulking 8'6" Might 9+ fighter can't be as intimidating as the slender bookworm Expert (must have a REALLY mean gaze) or any priest.
Harliquinn wrote:
In addition, the martial maneuvers offered and the ability to combat them into Advanced Maneuvers shouldn't be underestimated for comparing to spells. Generally, maneuvers have lower 'costs' (Recovery, Speed) and the ability to make basic attacks that use the same skills as your 'maneuvers' can't be discounted. Martial characters are always doing something they are designed to do in combat and with their many maneuvers, should always have an attack or weapon for the challenge at hand.
Changes to advanced maneuvers have increased the recovery for them. As already stated, an Expert's minimal investment combat attack (maxing out 1 combat skill) is roughly on par with the damage from the Martial characters attack while waiting on recovery. If the Expert or other caster invests in MT then their damage capability likely exceeds that of the Martial during their respective off attacks as already noted.
Harliquinn wrote:
I'm going to compare a couple of Spells vs. Maneuvers now...Assuming similar Skill Ranks / Bonuses between the Arcanum and Combat skills...
Damage Comparison
Spell: Elemental Bolt
Tier 1 (Base): Deals d6 (Primary) damage for Speed 4 (+2 Strain) [range 30']
Tier 1 (Adapted for Damage) Deals d8 (Primary) damage for Speed 4 (+3 Strain)
Tier 1 (Adapted for +Targets) Deals d6 (Primary) to 2 Targets damage for Speed 6 (+4 Strain)
Tier 1 (Adapted for 10' Area) Deals d6 (Primary) damage for Speed 6 (+6 Strain)
Maneuver: One-Handed Weapon
Tier 1 (Base): Deals d8 (Primary) damage for Speed 5
Tier 1 (Mighty Swing) Deals d8 (Primary) + 5 damage for Speed 6 (3 Recovery)
Tier 1 (Sweeping Strike) Deals d8 (Primary) damage to 2 Targets damage for Speed 6 (2 Recovery)
Ok, the above is a bit hard to do a comparison with as you're talking about a ranged weapon (Elemental Bolt) vs. a melee attack (Gladius). Let me start by pointing out that the Elemental Bolt investment represents 1/5 of 1 Talent to do all of the above. 1 and 1/5 if you want to count Prestidigitation, but that should only every be counted once in the comparison. The martial has invested 2 Talents.
There's a movement tax on the melee martial of Speed 1 to 4 depending on how much ground they need to cover to get within range to swing. It also doesn't prevent their opponent from moving causing this tax to be paid repeatedly. That speed isn't factored into your comparison. At a +5 skill the caster can autocast the adaptation for 2 Targets making it a more close comparison vs. Sweeping Strike. However, the caster doesn't need to move so no movement tax, and their 2 targets can be 65' apart at the extreme (30' in each direction from the caster). The 2 targets for sweeping strike must be positioned just right to make the attack effective.
At a +5 there's a good chance that the 10' AoE attack can be pulled off, though it might require a Fate point. At +8 it's an auto-cast. That hits up to 12 targets with a single attack. While I'd hate to see a combat where there are that many opponents that tightly grouped, 3 to 6 isn't unreasonable. You average 1 less point per attack (d6 vs d8), but hit more targets. The closest a Martial gets to this is Whirlwind Attack. That's not accessible until Tier 3, requires a minimum of investing in 3 MTs, requires a reach weapon to use it, isn't ranged and would take penalties of -2 to swing at targets within 5'. Advantage is certainly to the caster.
A closer Tier 1 comparison would be against a short bow as both are ranged.
Damage ComparisonSpell: Elemental Bolt
Tier 1 (Base): Deals d6 (Primary) damage for Speed 4 (+2 Strain) [range 30']
Tier 1 (Adapted for Damage) Deals d8 (Primary) damage for Speed 4 (+3 Strain)
Tier 1 (Adapted for +Targets) Deals d6 (Primary) to 2 Targets damage for Speed 6 (+4 Strain)
Tier 1 (Adapted for 10' Area) Deals d6 (Primary) damage for Speed 6 (+6 Strain)
Short bowTier 1 (Base): Deals d8 (Qu) damage for Speed 5 (2 reload) [ Range increment 40']
NOTE: Speed + Strain = Speed + reload; Total of 7 ticks but the caster gets the last 3 ticks to do something else.
Bow - Two targets; Requires the Tier 2 Martial Technique Splitting Hairs and therefore at least 1 Tier 1 MT as well. Minimum 2 talents invested. Deals d8 (Qu) damage to 2 Targets for Speed 7, Reload 2, Recovery 4.
Caster's attack is far and away better and available base Tier 1.
AoE for a bowman doesn't happen until Tier 5 with Darken the Sky. No additional Talents required, must wait until Tier 5 though. Up to 15 targets within 120' at a speed modifier of +3(6) and it's a Base maneuver. Certainly superior to the base Elemental Bolt AoE, but requires 4 Tiers for delivery. Arguably the caster at that point has a 31 or 32 autocast depending on whether his passive is 4 or 5 (12 + 15 ranks + passive). Damage to those targets is likely to be d8 (d10 or d12). For now I'm assuming no additional talents are being applied. Speed is 8, 2 reload and 8 recovery. Basically speed 10 before doing anything else.
With a 32 the Elemental Bolt autocasts a d10 (d10 or d12) 10' radius up to 60' away for Speed 6 (+8). With nothing else involved which has an advantage at Tier 5 is situational. Elemental Bolt AoE is available at Tier 1.
Harliquinn wrote:
Status Effects
Tier 1 Spells: Push (Awe), Knock Prone (Black Ice, Gale Force Winds), Stop Movement (Halt), Trait Penalties (Confound), Blinded (Diminish Sense)
Tier 1 Maneuvers: Push (Crushing Blow), Knock Prone (Shield Slam, Entangle Opponent), Stop Movement (Entangle Opponent), Stunned (Stunning Strike), Slow Movement (Hamstring)
Ok, a Shaman could start with Elemental Bolt, Black Ice, Gale Force Winds, Diminish Senses plus one other spell. With Commune with Spirits they can add Confound or Halt. So 1 character, Tier 1.1.
For the weapon tricks they're spread out over a variety of weapons and shields and have maneuver costs on top of standard speed costs.
Harliquinn wrote:
Personal Defense
Tier 1 Spells: AR (Arcane Shield, Earthen Shield, Ward of Shielding), Avoidance (Inertial Shield)
Tier 1 Maneuvers: Avoidance (Shielding), Fortitude (Shield Defense), Negate Attack (Grasp the Blade)
Shielding grants a +2 or +3 AV bonus, single character. Shield of Enduring Will grants a +2 to all defenses to all characters within 10'. Arcane Shield is going to grant AR in the 20s or higher on average. Push 6 but the attack is pretty much ignored. Grasp the Blade requires Gauntlet proficiency. The only Archetype that can start with it without expending a Talent is Expert.
Harliquinn wrote:
Granted this is just a quick look, but in general there appear to be a good selection of similar things that a Martial and Caster can do. Now, that said, spells obviously can do a lot more than Martial Abilities but that's true of most systems. I'd love to take a look at some higher level spells/maneuvers later to continue this comparison...
The difference is that a single caster can do many of the spell options depending on the traditions. It may be possible for a single martial character to do many or all of the options listed but require additional weapon training, maxing out additional skills and then switching weapons. Some of those like Shielding and Grasp the Blade are situational. If you don't have the right weapon handy - even if you have it, it does you no good.
I'm perfectly fine running through various scenarios. I would be relieved and grateful if we can demonstrate that there isn't a noticeable mechanical gap between Experts and all others, and then between casters and Martial. I'm perfectly fine making a sub-par character for RP reasons and enjoying it. At that point I'm maximizing my enjoyment rather than the mechanics. On the other hand, the mechanics shouldn't have a great disparity either.
So seriously, help me find the holes in my logic, show me where I'm wrong and help me put my concerns to rest. If we can't together, then help me come up with ideas for what would need to change to make things work as intended. I would think and hope this is something we can all get behind.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul