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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1277
Harliquinn wrote:
<snip>However, where I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion is that I believe Martial Characters have the unique ability to broadly apply their 'martial prowess' across weapons and weapon groups, using both skills and Talents. Martials should really be keeping 2-3 weapon skills maxed as a rule in order to truly capitalize on what Experts/Casters can't do.


I listed what I felt were core Martial skills earlier - melee (choice), ranged (choice), mettle, athletics. There are 2 open skill slots to max out or count as 4 skills of choice.

Those options include Battle, other martial skills and everything else the martial character is going to do. There is some flexibility, but there are also themes for characters. Your knights are likely to use broadswords, lances and shields. Your legionnaires are likely to use gladii, pilums and potentially tower shields. To use the shield as a weapon for the knight means adding a 3rd weapon skill. At that point the knight has no ranged weapon still. He might be able to max out 6 skills / level. He's looking at knight commander, so the knight is looking at melee (balanced), melee (polearms), melee (unbalanced) [for the shield], battle, ride... 1 skill left - ranged? Mettle? Athletics? Any skill to be used outside of combat?

They can do what you describe, but you can't argue for them to do that and then say they have plenty of room to do non-combat stuff too.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:45 pm 
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As an anectdotal, I've just tried to rebuild my Expert Saluwe priestess archer as a Divine.

Couldn't do it. Everything except Arcanum (Cants) dropped and it was actually harder to find the talent slots for the archery support.

As an Expert, I have to use the "Learn any one Talent" advancement for the extra LMT (ta), but its still more efficient than trying to use the Divine advancements.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Garrett "Hangman" Gibbson, Tech Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:04 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ohio
Just out of curiousity what is the characters race and Arcanum (Cants) ranks at your level? Trying to compare her to my Divine Build.

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:46 pm 
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Current version
4 ranks in both Cants and Archery.

Quote:
1. Concept
Agrippina Rutilia Bellator
___________________________________
___________________________________
___________________________________

2. Archetype: Expert
Skills:
Ride
Beast Lore (Canine)
Heal
Perception
Perform (Oratory)
Wilderness Lore

Talents: (Ignore requirements, choose now)
Armour Proficiency ( Light: Nation )
Weapon Training (Bows, Spear, Sickle )
Adaptable (Arcanum: Cants, Ranged: Archery)
Loyal Companion I (Alpha Wolf)

Special:
___________________________________

3. Attributes (Heroic – 40 point buy)
Mi _3____ Ch _6+1___
Pr _6____ In _4____
Qu _6____ Lo _4+1___
Vi _4____ Re _4__

4. Race: Human
Skills:
Arcanum: Cants
Ranged: Archery

Talents (chosen at Step 9):
Prestidigitation
Divine Spell Casting I

Special:
+1 Av

Racial Language: Low Coryani
Attribute Adjustment (Choose): Any

5. Nation/Region: Coryan/Balantica
Skills:
Tracking
Wilderness Lore

Native Language:
Low Coryani

6. Background: Initiate of the Gods (Saluwe)
Minimum Age: 20
Attribute Adjustment (Lowest): Ch, Lo
Skills:
Arcanum (Cants)
Knowledge (Religion)
Ranged (Archery)

Talents: (Ignore requirements, choose now)
Weapon Training/Mastery I (Sickle)

Special:
DSC is no longer Limited
Devout Talents are no longer Limited

Starting Gear:
Lorica Musculata
Sickle
Common Holy Symbol
Prayer Book
Traveller’s Kit

Starting Silver: 3d6(Ch) = 15sp

7. Train Skills (pLo + pRe +3 skill points)
Arcanum (Cants)
Melee (Unbalanced) 2 (3)
Mettle
Perception
Ranged (Archery)
Wilderness Lore#

8. Choose Flaws (Optional)
Oblivious

9. Train Talents
Quickdraw I
LMT1: Unbalancing Attack
LMT1: Precise Aim

10. Advancement Plan (optional):
1.1 Character Creation
1.2 +1 Qu, +1 Pr#
1.3 +1 Trained skills (pLo+3)#
1.4 Talents (2): LMT1: #Rapid Shot, #Stable Stance
1.5 Path: Ranger (Tracking, Wilderness Lore, Lay of the Land, Weapon Training (Bows))
1.6 +1 all skills
1.7 +1 Archetype Skills (pLo+3)
1.8 +1 Mi, +1 Ch
1.9 +2 All Defences
1.10 Talent: Spell Affinity (Benediction) or Learn 2 skills: Beast Lore (Birds of Prey), Beast Lore (Exotic Animals)

2.1 Talents x2: DSCII, LMT2: Careful Aim
2.2 Path: Anointed Priestess of Saluwe (Beast Lore, Wilderness Lore, Animal Affinity#, Lay of the Land II)
2.3 Skill Talents (2): Sabbatical (Arcanum, Melee, Ranged), #Loyal Companion II
2.4 +1 In, +1 Qu
2.5 +1 All Skills
2.6 +1 to (pLo+3) Trained skills
2.7 +1 Archetype Skills (x6)
2.8 +2 All Defences
2.9 +1 Vi, +1 Re
2.10 Talent: ?

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Garrett "Hangman" Gibbson, Tech Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:14 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ohio
Not bad. I knew my first character was going to be priest and I elected to go Divine. Maybe I should have gone Expert I don't know. But Divine just felt right from a character perspective. So far he's been effective in game. Decided to go val because I wanted to play val'Ishi Beltinian Exorcist. Played a val Holryn cleric of Hurrian in the 3.5 campaign. What I'd like to build is an Expert swashbuckling archaeologist who fights with a pistol and side sword, sort of an Arcanis Indiana Jones. Problem is I don't think I can roleplay it. :( I'm more the paladin/cleric/holy champion type who start off all self-righteous who gets his eyes opened and perspectives broadened by hard experience. For example Guthrum started off Lawful Good and finished the campaign as Chaotic Good, since he had learned to distrust a lot of authority figures and started putting his faith in the common people.

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:38 pm 
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The focus of a Beltinian Exorcist would benefit from using a Divine build, as you shouldn't have that big call on LMT talents.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Garrett "Hangman" Gibbson, Tech Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:52 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ohio
Kind of what I thought. Don't get me wrong I would love to kick some butt with the quarterstaff. But it would take away the other things I need. For exampe at Tier 2 I am taking two bloodline powers (a big focus of mine), Tier 2 Divine Spell Casting and Personal Remnant. There go 4 talents right there (two ranks of advancement). Beyond that are two sets of Attribute buffs, all the skill bumps I can get, a Path, and +2 to all defenses, and something else I can't remember at the moment. Now at Tier 3 I might have some openings for Martial Techniques as I will most likely not be taking a Path (since I decided not to go Beltinian Hospitaler--didn't fit my character concept), unless I can qualify for Champion of the Silver Chalice by then. Generally speaking I don't see Haakon being all that fancy with his moves, he either whacks you with the staff or else punches you in the face with it. Either way, given it's a fervidite quarterstaff, that's gotta hurt. :D

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:45 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1277
Harliquinn wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
Hat wrote:
2. Damage bumps to spell based AoEs affect all targets. If you add a d6 of additional elemental damage, every target takes it. Forward stance and Wolf Pack Tactics apply to all attacks, but do a Mighty Swing + Sweeping Strike and only the first target takes the extra +5 damage.


Where do you see that only the first target takes the +5 damage? The book says the effects are combined and even specifically uses Sweeping+Mighty as an example. The errata only changes/clarifies things when combining Two-Weapon with multi-target (eg Spinning+Sweeping or similar). Unless I'm missing something, the +5 damage from Mighty+Sweeping applies to all targets.


You are correct...if you combine a Base Maneuver that imposes an effect or extra damage with a multi-attack Base Maneuver (Sweeping Strikes, Passing Strike, Flows like Sand, etc.) then every target of the attack suffers the effect/damage.

John


You are correct. Sorry about the confusion, I was thinking more of effects combined with Two-Weapon fighting.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:51 am 
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Two weapon fighting has several unique issues that could be fixed sometime when combining with other maneuvers.

John

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- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Needed talents for a successful Archer
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:50 pm
Posts: 11
Hello Paul,

I could not find your thread about a fully tricked out archer. Can you add a link or post here again.

We have an Archer in the group and we wanted to make sure we are going down the right path for success:

Race: Osaliken
Arch: Expert
Background: Huntsman
Tier I Path: Bowman

Already have LMT Rapid shot and Precise Aim

Hat wrote:

That's not a mechanical problem, that's a mechanical balance. A fighter under recovery can make an average attack. A caster under strain can delay it or cast through it repeatedly using their best spells over and over. I encourage you to back and look at my other thread. I showed how building a nigh fully tricked out archer with all the martial techniques you'd need (7) and talents (5) is easily possible with limited investment at character creation or with a Path or 1 talent advancement getting them there. Any archetype can make that investment. With an Expert though, that's not just combat grade skill, but combat grade ranged. And the Expert still gets all of the spells, skills, skill talents and paths beyond that. The difference as I noted is that while a Martial archer is burning off recovery waiting for another great hit, the Expert is using the Martial's best attacks AS their down time.


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Patrick A.
Primary: Rikard Val Virdan, Combat Cleric of Nier


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