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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:23 pm 
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Is it possible for a Divine Caster to put three ranks per Tier into the use of his or her deity's favored weapon? That would seem logical to me, but I don't think I can do it under the current advancement scheme without making a major sacrifice. I don't want to be as good as a martial character but be able to help or hold my own in combat with at least basic attacks. I see the flashy moves reserved for the "real" combat types.

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:40 pm 
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Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
Is it possible for a Divine Caster to put three ranks per Tier into the use of his or her deity's favored weapon? That would seem logical to me, but I don't think I can do it under the current advancement scheme without making a major sacrifice. I don't want to be as good as a martial character but be able to help or hold my own in combat with at least basic attacks. I see the flashy moves reserved for the "real" combat types.


It's possible and easily to start with 3-4 ranks in the weapon of your deity. Without Paths to help out, a Divine can only put 2 Ranks / Tier advancement into their weapon skill. So at generation you can have 4 Ranks (Race choice matters here). Then you can put 2 advancements so by end of tier 1 you could have 5-6 ranks.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:57 am 
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Right now at Tier 2.2 I have 4 ranks in melee (polearms). And that's only likely to increase to 6 ranks by the end of Tier 2. I used my skill (any) from Val race to increase my Arcanum (Cants). I realize that leave me subpar with the quarterstaff, but I felt it was more important to focus on my casting which is my main role. And I'm cool with that. Although I wouldn't mind being better with the staff. But that's the way it is.

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:35 pm 
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Here is my analysis on how various builds attack in a combat cycle to maximize damage. Please let me know if you find any problems with my numbers or assumptions...

High Level Summary

Arcane/Divine: Generally casters can get off 2 Big Spells (Delay Strain on the 2nd) before needing to do something with their Strain. Casters have 5 options at this point:
A) Cast a 3rd spell and take damage for the Strain. This pushes the problem off to their next action.
B) Make a Basic/Weapon Trick Attack. This is a useful but likely a less effective attack due to the combat skill. However, a few Talents devoted to a weapon could allow them to use a martial maneuver to get the most bang for their buck. However, it likely puts them into melee danger or requires another Talent (Quick Hands) to use a bow. Divine characters are likely more competent at combat and this is a more viable option for them.
C) Make an Advanced Maneuver with a weapon. This is possible but unlikely because the Caster probably has no Talents devoted to this (other than weapon tricks). However, 1-2 Talents devoted to a good maneuver would allow Casters to have a few Advanced Maneuvers.
D) Use a non-attack ability which Strain is ticking down. Options might be Leadership, Assist Another, or anything that doesn't involve the caster making an attack.
E) Use a Fate Point to get rid of Strain. This is an effective solution, but one that uses a very limited resource.

Martial: Generally warrior types alternate 1 Big attack, 1 Basic attack, through the fight. While under Recovery, warriors have 4 options:
A) Attack with a Basic Attack. This is generally less damage or less effective than a Martial Maneuver. Martials have few options to reduce Recovery other than the Celerity Rune. However, the basic attacks can be augmented when combined with Talents like Weapon Mastery III/IV or Advanced Tactics.
B) Use a non-attack ability while Recovery is ticking down. This could be Leadership, Die Hard, Challenge, Exploit Weakness, or any number of options.
C) Use a Fate Point to get rid of Recovery. This is effective to set up another Advanced Maneuver, but uses a very limited resources.
D) If the Martial has also delved into divine or arcane casting, they could use a spell. This will be less effective than a full caster, but could provide another attack, a buff, or a debuff on the enemy. Quick Hands would be needed for bow or two-handed weapon users and there could be free strikes.

Expert: Generally an Expert is going to follow the same path as a Martial or Caster if that is the focus of the character. Experts who use both magic and combat are likely going to have something to do all the time. If an Expert opens with a spell and has Strain, their 5 options are:
A) Use Delay Strain to cast another spell. This is very unlikely because the Expert doesn't have any extra Talents to get this adaptation (They've used their starting Talents and 2 Any Talents each tier to raise casting and combat with a single weapon).
B) Make an Advanced Maneuver with a weapon. This is very unlikely because the Expert doesn't have any extra Talents to get maneuvers (other than weapon tricks)
C) Make a Basic Attack/Weapon Trick Attack with a weapon. This is the most likely scenario as the Expert is skilled with the weapon and can make these attacks similarly to a martial character.
D) Use a non-attack ability which Strain is ticking down. Options might be Leadership, Exploit Weakness, Assist Another, or anything that doesn't involve the expert making an attack.
E) Use a Fate Point to get rid of Strain. This is an effective solution, but one that uses a very limited resource.

So in Summary:
Arcane Casters are going to generally be making 2 "High Effect" Attacks (Advanced Spells), then 1-2 "Low Effect" Attacks using Basic Weapon/Weapon Trick Attacks at roughly 2 Ranks / Tier. An Arcane who has put 1-2 Talents into Weapons could be making a Basic Maneuver or Advanced Attack.

Divine Casters are going to generally be making 2 "High Effect" Attacks (Advanced Spells), then 1-2 "Normal Effect" Attack using Basic Weapon/Weapon Trick Attacks at roughly 2.5 Ranks / Tier. A Divine who has put 1-2 Talents into Weapons could be making a Basic Maneuver or Advanced Attack.

Martial Characters are going to generally be making 1 "High Effect" Attack (Advanced Maneuver), then 1 "Normal Effect" Attack (Basic Attack with Talent bonuses). A Martial who has put 2 Talents into Casting could be making a "Normal Effect" (Basic Spell) at roughly 2 Ranks / Tier.

Expert Characters who have focused in either Martial or Casting are going to follow the cycles above. Expert Characters who have both casting/martial are going to generally be making 1 "High Effect" Attack (Advanced Spell), then 1 "Normal Effect" Attack (Basic Attack / Weapon Trick). These are both made at 3 Ranks / Tier. Experts in general won't have the Talents to make "High Effect" Weapon Attacks like a Martial (Lack of Maneuvers)

=====

Combat Examples

Consider 24 Ticks of Combat vs. an Opponent with AR 3 (Medium Armor).
Assumption: Character starts 10 squares away and can move into attack with an Incremental Movement (2 Squares)

Arcane Caster I: - No Weapon Tricks, Using Bastard Sword
Talent Investment: 1 (2* Free) (Prestidigitation*, Arcane Spell Casting*, Delay Strain)
Using Advanced Spell (Elemental Bolt / Arc of Lightning) for Damage

Tick 1: Cast (Speed 4, Strain 7) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d6+d6+2 (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Tick 5: Cast (Speed 4, Strain 14 w/ Delay Strain) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d6+d6+2 (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Tick 9: Move + Basic Attack (Speed 5+2) - Damage: d8 +d6 (Might) (Avg: 5 after AR)
Tick 16: Basic Attack (Speed 5) - Damage: d8 +d6 (Might) (Avg: 5 after AR)
Tick 21: Move + Cast (Speed 4+1, Strain 2+7 w/ 4 Damage) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d6+d6+2 (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Average Total: 41.5 Damage / 26 Ticks = 1.6 DPT

——

Arcane Caster II: - Weapon Training (Greatsword), Mighty Swing
Talent Investment: 1 (3* Free) (Prestidigitation*, Arcane Spell Casting*, Quick Hands, Weapon Training*)
Using Advanced Spell (Elemental Bolt / Arc of Lightning) for Damage
Tick 1: Cast (Speed 4, Strain 7) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d6+d6+2 (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Tick 5: Move + Mighty Swing Attack (Speed 7+2, Recovery 3) - Damage: d10 +d6 (Might) +5 (Avg: 11 after AR)
Tick 14: Move + Cast (Speed 4+1, Strain 7) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d6+d6+2 (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Tick 19: Move + Mighty Swing Attack (Speed 7+1, Recovery 3) - Damage: d10 +d6 (Might) +5 (Avg: 11 after AR)
Average Total: 43 Damage / 27 Ticks = 1.6 DPT

=====

Divine Caster - No Weapon Tricks, Using Bastard Sword
Talent Investment: 1 (2* Free) (Prestidigitation*, Divine Spell Casting*, Delay Strain)
Using Castigate (With d4 Damage Adaptation)
Tick 1: Cast (Speed 5, Strain 3) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d4 (Avg: 7 Bypass AR)
Tick 6: Cast (Speed 5, Strain 6 w/ Delay Strain) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d4 (Avg: 7 Bypass AR)
Tick 11: Move + Basic Weapon Attack (Speed 5+2) - Damage d8 + d6 (Might) (Avg: 5 after AR)
Tick 18: Move + Cast (Speed 5+2, Strain 3) - Damage d8 (Primary) +d4 (Avg: 7 Bypass AR)
Average Total: 26 Damage / 25 Ticks = 1.0 DPT

——

Divine Caster - Weapon Training (Bastard Sword), Mighty Swing
Talent Investment: 1 (2* Free) (Prestidigitation*, Divine Spell Casting*, Delay Strain, Weapon Training*)
Using Smite Heretic (With d8 Die Bump Damage Adaptation)
Tick 1: Move + Cast + Mighty Swing Attack (Speed 5+2+2, Recovery 3, Strain 4) - Damage d8 + d6 (Might) +d8 (Spell) +5 (Avg: 14.5 after AR)
Tick 10: Basic Weapon Attack (Speed 5) - Damage d8 + d6 (Might) (Avg: 5 after AR)
Tick 15: Basic Weapon Attack (Speed 5) - Damage d8 + d6 (Might) (Avg: 5 after AR)
Tick 21: Cast + Mighty Swing Attack (Speed 5+2, Recovery 3, Strain 4) - Damage d8 + d6 (Might) +d8 (Spell) +5 (Avg: 14.5 after AR)
Average Total: 39 Damage / 28 Ticks = 1.4 DPT

=====

Martial - Using Bastard Sword and Shield
Talent Investment: 0 (2* Free) (Weapon Training, Unbalancing Attack)
Using Bastard Sword + Mighty Swing / Unbalancing Attack (Maximize single target damage)
Tick 1: Move + Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 6+2, Recovery: 7) - Damage d8 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 8 after AR)
Tick 9: Basic Weapon Attack + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 5) - Damage d8 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Prowess) (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Tick 14: Basic Weapon Attack (Speed: 5) - Damage d8 + d8 (Might) (Avg: 6 after AR)
Tick 19: Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 6, Recovery: 7) - Damage d8 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 8 after AR)
Tick 25: Basic Weapon Attack + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 5) - Damage d8 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Prowess) (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Average Total: 43 Damage / 30 Ticks = 1.43 DPT

——

Martial - Using Great Sword
Talent Investment: 0 (2* Free) (Weapon Training, Unbalancing Attack)
Using Bastard Sword + Mighty Swing / Unbalancing Attack (Maximize single target damage)
Tick 1: Move + Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 7+2, Recovery: 7) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 9 after AR)
Tick 10: Basic Weapon Attack + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 6) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Prowess) (Avg: 11.5 after AR)
Tick 17: Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 7, Recovery: 7) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 9 after AR)
Tick 24: Basic Weapon Attack + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 6) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Prowess) (Avg: 11.5 after AR)
Average Total: 41 Damage / 30 Ticks = 1.43 DPT

——

Martial - Using Great Sword, Divine Casting
Talent Investment: 3 (2* Free) (Weapon Training*, Unbalancing Attack*, Prestidigitation, Quick Hands, Divine Spell Casting)
Using Bastard Sword + Mighty Swing / Unbalancing Attack (Maximize single target damage)
Using Smite Heretic (Base spell Adapted for 1 Die Bump)
Tick 1: Move + Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 7+2, Recovery: 7) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 9 after AR)
Tick 10: Cast + Basic Attack + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 8, Strain 4) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Prowess) +d8 (Spell) (Avg: 16 after AR)
Tick 18: Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 7, Recovery: 7) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 9 after AR)
Tick 25: Cast + Basic Attack + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 8, Strain 4) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Prowess) +d8 (Spell) (Avg: 16 after AR)
Average Total: 50 Damage / 33 Ticks = 1.5 DPT

Martial - Using Great Sword, Arcane Casting
Talent Investment: 3 (2* Free) (Weapon Training*, Unbalancing Attack*, Prestidigitation, Quick Hands, Arcane Spell Casting)
Using Bastard Sword + Mighty Swing / Unbalancing Attack (Maximize single target damage)
Using Arc of Lightning (Base spell Adapted for 1 Die Bump)
Tick 1: Move + Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 7+2, Recovery: 7) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 9 after AR)
Tick 10: Cast + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 4, Strain 3) - Damage d8 + d8 (Prowess) +d8 (Primary) (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Tick 14: Basic Attack (Speed: 6) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) (Avg: 7 after AR)
Tick 20: Mighty Unbalance (Speed: 7, Recovery: 7) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 2 (Avg: 9 after AR)
Tick 27: Cast + Unbalance Effect (+2 Hit; Speed: 4, Strain 3) - Damage d8 + d8 (Prowess) +d8 (Primary) (Avg: 10.5 after AR)
Average Total: 46 Damage / 31 Ticks = 1.5 DPT

=====

Expert - See Above for single focus Arcane, Divine, or Martial with the same talents.

Expert - Using Great Sword, Divine Casting
Talent Investment: 2 (2* Free) (Weapon Training*, Prestidigitation*, Quick Hands, Divine Spell Casting)
Using Bastard Sword + Mighty Swing
Using Smite Heretic (Base spell Adapted for 1 Die Bump)
Tick 1: Move + Mighty Swing Attack (Speed: 7+2, Recovery: 3) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 5 (Avg: 12 after AR)
Tick 10: Cast + Basic Attack (Speed: 8, Strain 4) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Spell) (Avg: 11.5 after AR)
Tick 18: Mighty Swing Attack (Speed: 7, Recovery: 3) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 5 (Avg: 12 after AR)
Tick 25: Cast + Basic Attack (Speed: 8, Strain 4) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + d8 (Spell) (Avg: 11.5 after AR)
Average Total: 47 Damage / 33 Ticks = 1.42 DPT

——

Expert - Using Great Sword, Arcane Casting
Talent Investment: 2 (2* Free) (Weapon Training*, Prestidigitation*, Quick Hands, Arcane Spell Casting)
Using Bastard Sword + Mighty Swing
Using Arc of Lightning (Base spell Adapted for 1 Die Bump)
Tick 1: Move + Mighty Swing Attack (Speed: 7+2, Recovery: 3) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 5 (Avg: 12 after AR)
Tick 10: Cast (Speed: 4, Strain 3) - Damage d8 + d8 (Primary) (Avg: 6 after AR)
Tick 14: Mighty Swing Attack (Speed: 7, Recovery: 3) - Damage d10 + d8 (Might) + 5 (Avg: 12 after AR)
Tick 21: Cast (Speed: 4, Strain 3) - Damage d8 + d8 (Primary) (Avg: 6 after AR)
Average Total: 36 Damage / 25 Ticks = 1.45 DPT

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:05 pm 

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Hi John,

Thanks for putting up some analysis to work with. Unfortunately life's been crazy over the past couple of days and I still haven't had the time to do a proper review of your work up, I'll try and do that soon. I did want to point out a few things that would help refine things.

1. Weapons by high tier should be exceptional with full runes. For argument's sake probably Exceptional Celerity, Fine Celerity, Fine damage +1 (Fire, cold, electrical, sanctified), Fine something else. The celerity runes only work on decreasing the speed of maneuvers, so -1 Spd, -1 recovery. It does not however decrease the base weapon speed the way the Celerity spell does, sadly. Regardless, all weapon attacks should probably be counted as 2 points higher.

2. Any damage per tick calculation assumes that the character actually hits with the attack. The caster's physical attack is likely to be 3 - 5 points or more lower than the Martial or Expert. The Martial's attack spell is likely to be the same 3 - 5 points or more lower than rest. DPT on their "off" attack will need to be downgraded. The Expert's attacks will land equally well. You've called this out to a point in High Effect attack vs. Normal Effect attack, but more in the base damage not the to hit.

3. If you want to look at better melee damage and DPT, I would suggest looking at faster speed weapons. An exceptional speed 5 d8 base weapon becomes speed 4 d8+1. Because that's simply money spent, that should be assumed. I would not include an expectation of Legendary items, runes, etc. but Exceptional is already within reach. Melee attacks should see a bump from this.

4. If you've only got 5 talents to invest in combat, 5 tiers worth of Weapon Mastery might not make the most sense. It's +1 to hit, +die bump (average 1 point), +2 points damage, increased chance of a critical (3 in 100 rather than 1 in 100). For a -1 to hit, Forward Stance averages 2.5 points of damage pretty much as much as 2 tiers worth of Weapon Mastery. Likewise other MTs are likely to have more impact. I'm fine if you want to assume 5 combat talents, but if we're going to do a fair assessment, they should be high impact choices. This includes the MTs that allow for High Effect. A number of good ones are Tier I such as Sweeping Strike and Unbalancing Attack. Especially with the ruling that UA's extra damage will apply to a spell that follows it.

5. Likewise every combat grade caster should/will have Delay Strain. By itself it is easily worth more than multiple Weapon Mastery talents.

6. While I certainly agree that casters won't set aside a point of Fate for every combat they are involved in, it would seem odd not to ensure having 1 fate point for that purpose for the climactic battle at the end of a mod. This means casters will be casting 4 big spells in a row with no negative impact. By then Fate scores are likely to be 5+, not including things like cert shirts, etc.

In general, I think this is progress as it gives us something to refine together. You asked a specific question earlier in the thread, and I'll answer it in a separate post.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:29 pm 
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Paul
Thanks! I made a few decisions by choice to start the comparison.

1) I wanted to compare how characters roughly in mid-Tier would compare. Higher levels present too many options that I don't have time to compare.

2) For base ranks this is true. Adding in details of skill ranks would make things way more accurate but way more complicated for what I have time for. That said, at early Tier 1, the real difference in 1-2 ranks shouldn't be that different against normal enemies. However, if you are able to do the analysis that would be great.

3) Again, I'm assuming early Tier 1. I agree that runes, etc. need to factor in, but they are so varied that I wouldn't even want to start that analysis of picking them for a comparison. Casting probably has rune benefits from wands too.

4) I was trying to pick something for simplicity and to have a correlation with the five tiers of Casting. There are just too many combat Talent options to make equal comparisons by picking and choosing combinations of Talents. The bonus to damage and increased damage die from Mastery is very good if you want to maximize damage for a weapon, so it seemed an obvious choice. However, if you have objective selections of talents to compare that is fine also.

This is my basis only, so any further analysis you do is welcomed.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:32 pm 

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At the core my biggest concern is will players of every archetype be able to shine and feel like they really made a difference by having their character in the mod? Every player wants to feel useful. This usefulness should be inherent in the system, not dependent on the specific player. Balance comes in many ways.

By design, Martial archetype characters are focused on combat. Their martial techniques and most if not all of the combat talents have no use outside of combat. In terms of skills outside of combat, their option are Acrobatics, Athletics, Ride and Stealth. Of those, Stealth is also core to Arcane and completely available to every archetype. There may be some physical challenges, but in my experience these don't come up often or can be circumvented through other means such as spells. They in effect have 2 Any Talents and skills at 2 ranks / tier at most to define all of their other options for contribution outside of combat. It is matched and exceeded by every other archetype. All out of combat concepts are as easily if not more easily replicated by every other archetype. If their in combat contributions were or are where they will truly shine compared to the other archetypes, then at most they need a bit of touch up around the edges. Gaining a social skill such as intimidate perhaps.

Casting can be done with a heavy combat or non-combat focus. Most commonly there's a mix with the adaptations running the gamut. There's enough flexibility skill-wise for the Arcane that it's hard to say there's a set direction. There are plenty of options. The Divine archetype is more limited skill-wise for non-combat to social and god-specific skill plus knowledge religion. It's a bit more of a box and I think that's part of the reason there seem to be less archetype players for them. That and there are so many ways to gain full DSC that it's less critical. Again spell-wise they can be useful here. By themselves spells give them a chance to shine as it allows them the opportunity to do things that no one else can. More reasonably based on spell selection, they will shine more in or out of combat, but with the number of spells they get over the tiers they will be able to cover both.

Experts can pick anywhere to shine. There is a risk of overlap for non-combat with one of the other archetypes depending on the build. There isn't a skill base they can't shine as brightly in as any other. They need to pick where they want that to be. Looking at talents they're more flexible for roles than any other as well. There is a significant list of combat useful skill talents including:

Acrobatic, Adaptable, Back-to-Back, Born Leader, Campaigner, Evasion, Exploit Weakness (Tiered), Leadership (Tiered), One With the Shadows, Quick, Sabbatical, Steadying Word, Stealthy (Tiered), Tactical Awareness

Even ignoring Adaptable and Sabbatical which give ranks in skills and the Leadership based talents there are at least 15 tiers worth of combat useful skill talents. Stealthy can be argued against though it can be used to set up ambushes and is a prerequisite for One With the Shadows. This also doesn't include ones that are more tangential like Loyal Companion to have something else fight for you. I also left out Prestidigitation.

Unless an Expert goes for a 1 Talent advancement, they should pick up 2 new skills every tier, granting them even more usefulness in and/or out of combat depending on what they add. Depending on the concept, the number of added skills could double to 4 new per tier. These extra skills allow them to at a minimum add spaces where they can shine even if their standard spots are taken by other players. These extra skills are still in addition to the other advancements. An expert isn't locked in at character direction to their specialty.

So, getting back to the original core question - where does each character contribute and shine?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:03 pm 

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That's a good summary Paul. In that respect, I agree that Martial is probably the weakest archetype. All other archetypes can choose to shine in or out of combat (or a mix) but Martial is mostly limited to trying to shine in combat (unless they spend talents to pick up casting which they will be worse at than any other archetype). Is it enough to only be able to shine in combat when everyone else can choose to shine elsewhere (sometimes in addition to combat)? I'm not sure.

I'd been toying with a few ideas for a tertiary character. After this discussion, I think I'll probably go Martial and see how it goes (two of the three concepts I was thinking about could be Martial or Expert).

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Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:06 am 

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wilcoxon wrote:
<snip>Is it enough to only be able to shine in combat when everyone else can choose to shine elsewhere (sometimes in addition to combat)? I'm not sure.


Martial represents the most specialized archetype. If they always or nearly always shine in combat then for balance purposes they should be able to contribute elsewhere, but don't need to shine. Intimidate is a good example of where giving them the option for 3 ranks would allow them to contribute, but not shine. If intimidate by itself was enough to get you past another encounter, the alternative was probably combat anyway.

If Athletics came up regularly enough for it to be a place where a Martial can shine, that might alleviate some of the need to have them excel at combat consistently. I would consider the standard "core" martial skills to be Melee (something), Ranged (something), Mettle, Athletics. That leaves probably 2 skills to either split into 4 skills at 2 ranks or excel in something else. Sharp Eyes makes Perception possible at the cost of a Talent. If you do that though and add Perception, you've got 1 more skill for Battle, Melee, Ride, Stealth, Acrobatics or to split into a couple of different 2 rank / tier skills.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Po
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:49 am 
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Hat wrote:
At the core my biggest concern is will players of every archetype be able to shine and feel like they really made a difference by having their character in the mod? Every player wants to feel useful. This usefulness should be inherent in the system, not dependent on the specific player. Balance comes in many ways.


I agree 100% with what you are saying here and is at the heart of some of that fixes (Link) that I've recommended (With an eye towards your input as a matter of fact).

Hat wrote:
By design, Martial archetype characters are focused on combat. Their martial techniques and most if not all of the combat talents have no use outside of combat. In terms of skills outside of combat, their option are Acrobatics, Athletics, Ride and Stealth. Of those, Stealth is also core to Arcane and completely available to every archetype. There may be some physical challenges, but in my experience these don't come up often or can be circumvented through other means such as spells. They in effect have 2 Any Talents and skills at 2 ranks / tier at most to define all of their other options for contribution outside of combat. It is matched and exceeded by every other archetype. All out of combat concepts are as easily if not more easily replicated by every other archetype. If their in combat contributions were or are where they will truly shine compared to the other archetypes, then at most they need a bit of touch up around the edges. Gaining a social skill such as intimidate perhaps.


I think you've summarized this very well. The only thing I caution is when you say their options outside of combat are limited, that just means the skills they can keep at 3 Ranks / Tier with Archetype Advancements. Nothing prevents a Martial from branching out at 2 Ranks / Tier into other Skills in order to be competent. It probably wouldn't make sense for the Martial Character to try to become the party "face", but there's no reason a Martial couldn't have 2 Ranks / Tier in Streetwise, Perception, or a Knowledge Skill in order to be more well rounded. They just won't be as good as the characters with 3 Ranks / Tier. I think you've mostly covered that, but wanted to make it clear for others reading as well.

In addition, you've listed some great Skill Talents for Experts. Here are some great Combat Talents that aren't just for in combat but also help with exploration dangers and other problems: Advanced Training, Armored Fortitude, Battle Hardened, Callous (Tiered), Danger Sense, Die Hard (Tiered), Hunter, Quick Draw (Tiered), Steadying Word, and Toughness. To draw a comparison with your argument below, there are at least 8 Tiers worth of Combat Talents that provide some out of combat utility or usefulness.

Improvements: I've mentioned a few improvements to help polish the edges and I agree with your assessment there. A unique ability to reduce Recovery times on advanced maneuvers I think would be very appropriate (Particularly given the "new" changes that I'm not sure most knew about). In addition, I would move some skills to a new category called: Wilderness Skills - Beast Lore, Tracking, Wilderness Lore. Then give Martials those choices with their skill advancement as well so that a character could make a 'ranger' style character as a Martial. Intimidate and Heal could also be added. This helps round out Martials.

Hat wrote:
Casting can be done with a heavy combat or non-combat focus. Most commonly there's a mix with the adaptations running the gamut. There's enough flexibility skill-wise for the Arcane that it's hard to say there's a set direction. There are plenty of options. The Divine archetype is more limited skill-wise for non-combat to social and god-specific skill plus knowledge religion. It's a bit more of a box and I think that's part of the reason there seem to be less archetype players for them. That and there are so many ways to gain full DSC that it's less critical. Again spell-wise they can be useful here. By themselves spells give them a chance to shine as it allows them the opportunity to do things that no one else can. More reasonably based on spell selection, they will shine more in or out of combat, but with the number of spells they get over the tiers they will be able to cover both.


I personally would remove some of the current "Lore" skills into other areas, notably Streetwise, Wilderness Lore, Tracking, and Larceny. This would still allow Arcane Archetypes to have a wide range of 'knowledge/lore' skills without delving easily into the realms of Experts and Martials.

Hat wrote:
Experts can pick anywhere to shine. There is a risk of overlap for non-combat with one of the other archetypes depending on the build. There isn't a skill base they can't shine as brightly in as any other. They need to pick where they want that to be.


This is the one thing I want to provide an opposed view on. While it's true that there is no skill that an Expert cannot shine as brightly as any other, the opposite is true. There are no skills that Experts have that another archetype cannot have just as high or higher, other than Artisan, Appraise, and Perform. What this means is that in a group of 5-7 characters, whatever skills the Expert has maxed are likely maxed by someone else (Arcane for Lore, which currently includes Larceny and Streetwise; Divine for Social Skills; Martial for Physical Skills). It's rare to be in a group where the Expert is the only one with a particular skill. If Experts are designed to 'shine at skills' (Which I would wager was the original intent), then they need to be allowed/able to do that. I believe one of the reasons that many Experts have moved into focusing on combat or casting is that their supposed advantage in skills is not being realized (This was indeed the case for Kelb's change from the original character to what he was after Codex of Heroes).

Hat wrote:
Looking at talents they're more flexible for roles than any other as well. There is a significant list of combat useful skill talents including:

Acrobatic, Adaptable, Back-to-Back, Born Leader, Campaigner, Evasion, Exploit Weakness (Tiered), Leadership (Tiered), One With the Shadows, Quick, Sabbatical, Steadying Word, Stealthy (Tiered), Tactical Awareness

Even ignoring Adaptable and Sabbatical which give ranks in skills and the Leadership based talents there are at least 15 tiers worth of combat useful skill talents. Stealthy can be argued against though it can be used to set up ambushes and is a prerequisite for One With the Shadows. This also doesn't include ones that are more tangential like Loyal Companion to have something else fight for you. I also left out Prestidigitation.


I'll be honest with you, I'm not sure why some of these Talents are "Skill" Talents and not "Combat". In particular, Campaigner should be Combat, while Quick and Leadership in my opinion should also be "Combat" Talents in addition to "Skill". BTW, Tactical Awareness is Combat, not Skill. The rest are very clearly "Skill" oriented though several have use in combat as well. If there are truly 15 Tiers worth, then a character is never going to be able to learn them all, but it does give options, which other characters are able to taken with 2 Talents / Tier advancement.

Hat wrote:
Unless an Expert goes for a 1 Talent advancement, they should pick up 2 new skills every tier, granting them even more usefulness in and/or out of combat depending on what they add. Depending on the concept, the number of added skills could double to 4 new per tier. These extra skills allow them to at a minimum add spaces where they can shine even if their standard spots are taken by other players. These extra skills are still in addition to the other advancements. An expert isn't locked in at character direction to their specialty.


I've already pointed out the Skill problem. Unless some of those new skills / tier are unique to Experts (or at least Skills another archetype couldn't have had maxed), they aren't going to make the Expert shine. They are going to help round out the character for future tiers. Those new Skill Ranks at 2 Rank / Tier are going to be the same Ranks as a Martial or Arcane/Divine's 'cross archetype' skills, and likely only get raised 1 Rank / Tier after that.

The same argument about adding spaces can be said for the Skill Advancement of Arcane/Divine/Martial. Even if the Martial isn't going to be the party face, their other skills at 2 Ranks / Tier help flesh them out and add spaces where they could shine if those skills aren't taken by other players.

All Archetypes are only able to keep 5-7 skills maxed, regardless of how many they are allowed to pick. Experts aren't able to keep more skills maxed than any other Archetype, they just have more '1-2 Ranks / Tier' skills than other archetypes.

Hat wrote:
So, getting back to the original core question - where does each character contribute and shine?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


I think the intent was something along the line:
Arcane:
In Combat: Arcane Spell Casting, Knowledge (Creatures)
Out of Combat: Arcane Spell Casting (Utility), Knowledge Challenges, Research

Divine:
In Combat: Divine Spell Casting, Secondary Fighter (Tank or Damage)
Out of Combat: Divine Spell Casting (Utility), Social Challenges, Spiritual Guidance

Martial:
In Combat: Primary Fighter (Versatility: Tank, Damage), Physical Challenges
Out of Combat: Physical Challenges, Keeping the Party Safe [I would like to see "Wilderness Challenges" added to this list, with new skill categories]

Expert:
In Combat: Secondary Caster, Secondary Fighter, Knowledge (Creatures), Physical Challenges (Pick any 2-3)
Out of Combat: Challenges based on the Character's Focus (Pick 2-3) [I would like to see "Rogue Challenges" added to this list, with some skill category changes to Streetwise and Larceny and a few others]

That's just my view...

John

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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