Hat wrote:
As I have mentioned previously, I would rather head off problems early than try and retrofit solutions later...snip...
I think we're all onboard with this in principle.
I would also add that I don't know any gamers who've never had an experience where there was some kind of challenge in the game and you sat there feeling useless because your character didn't have the right mechanics to contribute. We want to minimize that. That includes combat...we don't want a few kinds of "bent combos" to so dominate the battlemat that other builds feel overshadowed.
Hat wrote:
...I encourage you to back and look at my other thread. I showed how building a nigh fully tricked out archer with all the martial techniques you'd need (7) and talents (5) is easily possible with limited investment at character creation or with a Path or 1 talent advancement getting them there.
I don't think its a problem that an expert archetype archer is potentially as good as a martial archetype archer at shooting people. There's an excellent chance that if I wanted to use A:RPG to do Robin Hood's band of merry men then the outlaws would contain plenty of different NPCs built using both the martial and expert archetypes. I personally don't think one outshines the other. Still I note that as an "ideal" archer I'd want the martial techniques plus the hawkeye chain plus the Weapon Mastery chain. That's 17, not 12 talents. The martial archetype easily gets the 17 talents with its standard advancement options (with 3 left over for melee). At best the expert gets 10 of these with advancement options...the other 2 (or 7) have to come from creation or paths. 2 is no big deal but the right 7 is probably not doable.
Hat wrote:
I and some others have focused on the archetypes from a strictly mechanical perspective of what can be done with them, not just specific choices people have made. My comparison doesn't stop at T2 where many players are now, but looks at how it plays out all the way to Tier 5
I share that interest and perspective. But I've quoted Tukufu because he's my concrete foundation that serves as a means of getting at what's possible. It's my read (which may or may not be correct) that when people talk about what's mechanically possible in the abstract as opposed to actual builds that they end up leaving out the cost of opportunity. I appreciate that you have a concrete archer build and that you are looking ahead beyond tier 2 (something I concede I have not done a lot of)
Let's say I get possessed tonight by an evil? spirit? (Jack Chick is finally vindicated.) And I decide I want to "make Tukufu MORE powerful!" Hoping no one will catch me, I completely redesign the character to maximize damage in melee...
Mighty Spinning Strikes seems like a good place to start. That requires 3 talents (Two Weapon Fighting, Spinning Strikes and (probably) Balanced Blades). I have to drop three (non skill) talents to get there. I have three elective talents and 4 talents from advancements I can potentially drop. The list is: ASC 1, Adaptation (Delay Strain), Adaptation (Expand Area), Adaptation (Selective Spell), MT: Passing Attack, Quick, & Tomb Raider.
Tomb Raider is core to role-playing Tukufu...but the evil spirit is focused on roll-playing. That's the first thing overboard. Probably I dump two adaptations (not delay strain). But I could maybe dump Quick & MT: Passing Attack. Haha! My melee damage is going way up! >;0 ... But also my spell casting has gone way down. =/ Hrrrm. Cost of opportunity. Really to be maxed out at Mighty Spinning Strikes I should be Huge and swing an heirloom great sword in my main hand. Two more talents have to be swapped out (and Tukufu needs to quietly change to Human which complicates my rebuild tremendously...). But now my 2 AR isn't high enough to be tanking in melee so I need 2 more talent slots to buy armor proficiency...
The point I'm getting at is that to get really close as an Expert to an optimized martial character I have to dump my spell casting (which ultimately runs on talents). To optimize spell casting also carries a cost to your fighting abilities. Its true you can't do everything even if Cody is right and we really do want our PCs to be Gods.
Me making something up that I think Hat more or less wrote:
I have concerns that, especially as we go up into higher tiers, that the repeated ability to make an attack with (advanced) martial techniques followed by an advanced spell will be unbalanced vs. other combat options. The recovery and strain will bleed off as Expert Archetype casters cycle back and forth. Other archetypes will have to wrestle with recovery or strain reducing their combat effectiveness.
Hopefully I'm not taking too many liberties with the above non-quote.
I don't know if this will be true or not. I do believe (strongly) that its not true at Tier 1 or 2. My crusade character Eisener was the Martial archetype and vastly more dangerous than Tukufu in combat.
But I certainly noticed the advantages of building such a character (that could cycle between an advanced manuever and an advanced spell) and Tukufu is definitely headed in that direction. If its nice enough that it stands out to me as a really good option then I'm willing to at least think that it might be too good.
But in other places you've also said that casters can launch their best spell time and again through strain...through eating some damage, or delaying the strain or using fate to wipe their strain. I expect high level casters will be better at this than low level ones. I also expect that high level martial characters will be able to add enough things like stances, murderous precision & the perfect cut to keep up even on their off attacks.