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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:01 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1306
val Holryn wrote:
<snip>
Harliquinn wrote:
...snip...To be clear, I would be thrilled with a Background that just unlocked Rudimentary Arcane Casting. It doesn't even have to give the talent. This still requires a lot more investment than an Arcane character, but at least makes it possible to start that way.


Hmmm. Noted. I'll work something up and add it to my (growing) list of "new crunch" that's waiting for either a home game or a submission call from PCI.


This insistence on adding a way to become a full arcane caster without investing in either the Archetype or a Path basically says that the issue is one of game mechanics, not with concept. An Arcane Archetype could be mixed with any other background with an explanation of "discovered late" to mimic the story.

The system is conceived and built around the concepts of the great archetypes. Experts are supposed to excel as skill monkeys be that as rogues, scouts or scholars. As I think as has been amply demonstrated, the barriers to becoming full casters are low enough that with a modicum of effort pretty much anyone can become one.

This push seems to further erode at the archetype basis. Most characters are casters of some sort, and we're not short on Divine casters. The Divine archetype though gets a bit of a short shrift though. I think it's easy to make a case that the problem doesn't lie with the archetype, but rather the ease at which Divine casting is available through other backgrounds.

What I honestly would like to understand is what's driving this push. Is it believing that at it's core the archetype system's flawed? Or if the archetype concept is sound, how does adding the requested background option support the archetype system rather than erode it? Why isn't the Arcane archetype or Apprentice Arcanist Path sufficient? Or using Sword and Spell or the similar talents in CoH to help keep up?

This isn't meant as an attack. I know Harlequin and val'Holryn and respect their/your opinions. I just don't see how this change though helps the system.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:20 am 
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Hat wrote:

This insistence on adding a way to become a full arcane caster without investing in either the Archetype or a Path basically says that the issue is one of game mechanics, not with concept. An Arcane Archetype could be mixed with any other background with an explanation of "discovered late" to mimic the story.


Hat
This could be said of every single Background out there for the most part. The system is pretty rich in variety and letting you build the character you want from many different ways. There is a notable exception of the ability to cast some Arcane Eldritch/Elder magic at character generation without being an Arcane Archetype. This allowance supports *many* traditional concepts in other games: The Bard being a notable (Expert/Arcane), The Duskblade/Hexblade/Magus (Martial/Arcane). Sure, these are available via Paths, but Paths shouldn't have to be used to build the core character concept. Paths should build on those core concepts to specialize or take the character in unique directions. Using Paths to 'discover late' is fine if that's your concept, but if your concept is "I'm a character whose done a little bit of skills and a little bit of magic" at character generation, there are a few venues blocked to you for no obvious reason.

I've yet to hear a compelling reason why the ability to unlock/learn Arcane Casting (I'm not even saying give full casting but at least unlocking the potential with something like Rudimentary Arcane Casting) during character generation isn't supported. I've heard reasons that it is learned and takes a long time. However, I could take the Path at Tier 1.1 that gives Arcane Casting, which doesn't represent nearly the amount of time that you'd have spent if you were studying arcane magic as a Background (Usually 5-15 years). I've heard reasons that it's inborn and takes a while to surface, but then Psionics and Shamanism (which is inborn) can both be unlocked during character generation.

In addition, I see no reason why the desire to have this added suddenly erodes the Archetypes, as just about every other possible combination is already allowed. You can get full Divine Casting from every Archetype; You can get Shaman, Psionics, and Sorcerer-Priest Arcane Casting from every Archetype; You can learn a lot of skills like an Expert (using Talents, Backgrounds) from every Archetype; You can take Martial Techniques and get Armor like a Martial for every Archetype. Perhaps you can go into more detail why the addition of the last 2 Arcane being available is doing the eroding?

If things like Initiate of the Gods, Templar, Shaman Training, etc. didn't exist, I would be more convinced that Arcane/Divine casting were meant to be held only by the Archetypes at character generation. However, they are available and I personally no reason that the others aren't allowed as Backgrounds to support very common and foundational 'concepts' (see above).

Just because a Martial or Expert takes a Background in Casting, it doesn't mean that they are going to be the equal of an Arcane or Divine Caster without sacrificing a lot of their Archetype's features. There are still very different character builds/concepts supported depending upon which Archetype you take.

For example: A character with Expert Archetype and an Arcane Casting Background would be heavily skill oriented and use their magic as a means to supplement their abilities, perhaps in hiding, deception, or even sneaky combat. A character with Arcane Archetype and a "Skill based" Background could be something like an Arcane Trickster, who uses her magic everyday but has picked up survival skills in order to outwit or hide from the Harvesters.

I hope this helps shed some light on the request and why I don't feel it changes the game at all, other than to allow the last few combinations that are missing from character generation.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:35 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Hi John,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Harliquinn wrote:
Hat wrote:
This insistence on adding a way to become a full arcane caster without investing in either the Archetype or a Path basically says that the issue is one of game mechanics, not with concept. An Arcane Archetype could be mixed with any other background with an explanation of "discovered late" to mimic the story.


This could be said of every single Background out there for the most part. The system is pretty rich in variety and letting you build the character you want from many different ways. There is a notable exception of the ability to cast some Arcane Eldritch/Elder magic at character generation without being an Arcane Archetype. This allowance supports *many* traditional concepts in other games: The Bard being a notable (Expert/Arcane), The Duskblade/Hexblade/Magus (Martial/Arcane).


Not all concepts should be ported directly from other systems, but it's a valid point. I can see a couple of different options outside of what you've proposed. The thing that doesn't add up for me, is if the spell access is important rather than the nature of the background, then it's at least as kludgy a fit if your goal is a bard, and the background is something like - Self-taught Recluse. I'd rather tackle the larger concepts that are missing rather than focusing on the mechanics as otherwise it might not fix the problem. If a new background is really the fix, then it should be the right background to support those kinds of concepts directly.

Bards are a mix of skill talents, skills especially perform and casting. To build an effective Bard off the Arcane Archetype talent, what seems to be missing is support for Perform skills to maintain a 3 ranks/tier advancement. The Arcane's advancement to advance lore skills by an extra rank per tier (to 3) grants that flexibility. One option could be a talent that adds Perform to the list of skills that can be taken with an Archetype's advancement list in the same way that Sharp Eyes adds perception.

Another option would be to add a special to the entry level Bard Path stating that Rudimentary Spellcasting (Elder, Eldritch, Primal) is no longer a Limited talent. As a dabbler in things you'd still have Prestidigitation as you need it to qualify for the Path. I know this second option doesn't provide the full spell casting progression at start of character, but if combined with the talent suggestion I mentioned first, this becomes 2 valid paths to the end concept of a fully casting bard with different trade-offs depending on what's most important.

Harliquinn wrote:
Sure, these are available via Paths, but Paths shouldn't have to be used to build the core character concept. Paths should build on those core concepts to specialize or take the character in unique directions. Using Paths to 'discover late' is fine if that's your concept, but if your concept is "I'm a character whose done a little bit of skills and a little bit of magic" at character generation, there are a few venues blocked to you for no obvious reason.


There are a number of examples of Paths that need to be taken as the first advancement to explain a character's background - Coryani Battlemage and Centurion immediately leap to mind as they are combined with Former legionnaire, meaning you've already mustered out. I would point out that "a little bit of skills and a little bit of magic" is easily done with Prestidigitation and starting skill selection regardless of Archetype. Once you allow for even Rudimentary Casting to be open, there's virtually no daylight between a starting Expert and a starting Arcane in terms of casting. Any background that would open that door would have to grant Arcanum (Sorcery), meaning that with the use of Adaptable an Expert can start with 4 ranks in the casting skill. Someone who has as much spell power as a character who's devoted their whole life to the pursuit doesn't feel like a dabbler to me.

On the other hand you're correct that the options are there for virtually everything else. The other complication for this kind of background is that I feel that there should be one that's for non-Elorii and one for Elorii. I don't feel - perhaps incorrectly - that Eloran society as a whole has the same fear of Ymmandragore that others do. If an Elorii character comes from the Vastwood, harvesters are arguably a non-issue until after they've started character play. For everyone else, if they had access to the training, why weren't they brought in by the Sanctorum? Though currently nothing within the Arcane Archetype requires contact with the Sanctorm allowing characters to be created with training without that connection, so that point is somewhat moot.

Harliquinn wrote:
I've yet to hear a compelling reason why the ability to unlock/learn Arcane Casting (I'm not even saying give full casting but at least unlocking the potential with something like Rudimentary Arcane Casting) during character generation isn't supported. I've heard reasons that it is learned and takes a long time. However, I could take the Path at Tier 1.1 that gives Arcane Casting, which doesn't represent nearly the amount of time that you'd have spent if you were studying arcane magic as a Background (Usually 5-15 years). I've heard reasons that it's inborn and takes a while to surface, but then Psionics and Shamanism (which is inborn) can both be unlocked during character generation.


I'm not sure I fully agree with the assessment. Here's my understanding of the way arcane magic works.
1. Elder/Eldritch - requires the Gift and you have it or you don't. You can discover it later, but you cannot gain it later. The closest to gaining it later are the Ymmandragoran Winedrinkers. There is nothing specifically in the write up under the Arcane Archetype, Elder Sorcerer's Apprentice Background nor the description of Elder sorcery itself that explicitly mentions the years of study. It can be implied given the much greater starting age for an Elorii elder sorcerer's apprentice (180), but it's not explicit. To a certain extent I think that the Apprentice Archanist Path is one requiring a certain suspension of disbelief in how long it takes to master to work mechanically.
2. Primal - requires no Spark. Power is granted through pacts made with spirits.
3. Sarishan Sorcerer-Priests - Their version of magic is so strange as to be hard to quantify. With full access to both Arcane and Devout talents except in cases requiring Cants, they are a bit hard to decipher. It does not require the gift though as this is arguably more of a Divine practice.
4. Psionics - requires being a val and some sort of awakening event. Preparation and training alone aren't sufficient regardless of preparation. This can be seen by someone taking the Awakened Psion background without gaining access to the casting. I can think of a variety of reasons to describe why this doesn't happen by character creation, all with their own interesting story implications (spontaneously awakened early, failed awakening attempt, refused having an awakening attempt, etc.)

Harliquinn wrote:
In addition, I see no reason why the desire to have this added suddenly erodes the Archetypes, as just about every other possible combination is already allowed. You can get full Divine Casting from every Archetype; You can get Shaman, Psionics, and Sorcerer-Priest Arcane Casting from every Archetype; You can learn a lot of skills like an Expert (using Talents, Backgrounds) from every Archetype; You can take Martial Techniques and get Armor like a Martial for every Archetype. Perhaps you can go into more detail why the addition of the last 2 Arcane being available is doing the eroding?<snip>


I think the access through as many backgrounds as there are to full casting as a starting character who's not of the associate archetype already erodes the archetypes. I think the Sword & Spell and related talents do the same, although there is more of a bite to that set of options. Given the choice I would change Prestidigitation to only grant Unravel if a character is an Arcane or Divine archetype and change open access to A/DSC granted by Shaman Initiate, Initiate of the Gods, Templar etc. to Rudimentary Casting/Prayers is no longer Limited. Those kind of changes are far more of an overhaul of the system than a new talent or background though. So the question at this point is more do you continue down the slope or not? And obviously this is just my opinion of how the archetypes should be implemented. I don't have a problem with non-Archetype caster builds. My primary was designed that way off the Martial archetype and I accept that his casting is secondary.

Harliquinn wrote:
Just because a Martial or Expert takes a Background in Casting, it doesn't mean that they are going to be the equal of an Arcane or Divine Caster without sacrificing a lot of their Archetype's features. There are still very different character builds/concepts supported depending upon which Archetype you take.<snip>


After the initial investment, very little is needed to "keep up" with a dedicated archetype focused caster build, at least for an Expert. One skill and one talent per tier is what's needed to keep up with the base. They may not have quite as many adaptations or spells as the dedicated caster, but pretty close to it and the Martial or Expert still gains their additional focused benefits per tier. A/DSC is the single most powerful talent / technique in the game bar none. How much of the rest of the Arcane or Divine's archetype sets themselves apart?

This could be mitigated if there were more talents that required a specific archetype or spell access that required either archetype or Path requirements. These are things that could be built into new content or a 2nd edition if one is eventually released, but they're not present today.

Harliquinn wrote:
I hope this helps shed some light on the request and why I don't feel it changes the game at all, other than to allow the last few combinations that are missing from character generation.


It does and I hope my response illustrates the questions and concerns I have opening that door. I think that the A:RPG is one of the best mechanical systems out there especially in support of the world it's built for. I like it's design philosophy and flexibility. I think care needs to be taken not to push things too far because once you open a door and let people through, it's hard to push them back and close it. Again, you've got valid points in terms of all of the other options being available and a request for access to Rudimentary Spellcasting rather than making ASC available may be a reasonable compromise.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:54 am 

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val Holryn wrote:
Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu...but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.


It wouldn't take a separate talent would it? It could just replace a spell of your choice when you take the normal ASC, I thought. I thought you could choose universal spells then, instead of a normal spell from your tradition. So at tier II you could get two primary, one secondary, and unravel; or one of each and unravel.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:38 am 

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toodeep wrote:
val Holryn wrote:
Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu...but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.


It wouldn't take a separate talent would it? It could just replace a spell of your choice when you take the normal ASC, I thought. I thought you could choose universal spells then, instead of a normal spell from your tradition. So at tier II you could get two primary, one secondary, and unravel; or one of each and unravel.


The rules as written are a bit unclear. Universal spells are not a tradition listed under A/DSC. The Tiered benefits note that you "Choose one primary and two secondary Traditions that you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic." With Universal not listed in the traditions / benefits within the talent it appears to be saying no.

Under Prestidigitation you select a Source as part of that, and Universal is a tradition which argues towards allowing it and yet Prestidigitation specifically notes to use the Learn Spell talent to get them.

Also, the FAQ seems to reinforce that opinion:

"Question: Does the Prestidigitation Talent give access to Universal Advanced and Sustained spells, or must they be learned through other means?

Answer: No, as stated in the Talent you only gain access to Base Universal spells, you must take the Learn Spell Talent to learn any of the Universal Advanced spells. The exception to this is when you gain both Prestidigitation and Arcane/Divine Spell casting at the same step during character generation, in which case you ALSO learn all the Universal Advanced and Sustained spells. Arcane and Divine Archtypes are granted both of those spells during the Archtype step, Expert and Martial Archtypes that are permitted to learn Arcane/Divine Casting through a Background may take both Talents during step 9 of character creation. However, Experts that take Prestidigitation during step 9 must qualify for the Talent normally."

As such I would learn towards no, but it would be good to know. Possibly worth bringing up in the rules discussion section though for an official answer.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:04 am 

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Hat wrote:
toodeep wrote:
val Holryn wrote:
Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu...but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.


It wouldn't take a separate talent would it? It could just replace a spell of your choice when you take the normal ASC, I thought. I thought you could choose universal spells then, instead of a normal spell from your tradition. So at tier II you could get two primary, one secondary, and unravel; or one of each and unravel.


The rules as written are a bit unclear. Universal spells are not a tradition listed under A/DSC. The Tiered benefits note that you "Choose one primary and two secondary Traditions that you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic." With Universal not listed in the traditions / benefits within the talent it appears to be saying no.

Under Prestidigitation you select a Source as part of that, and Universal is a tradition which argues towards allowing it and yet Prestidigitation specifically notes to use the Learn Spell talent to get them.

Also, the FAQ seems to reinforce that opinion:

"Question: Does the Prestidigitation Talent give access to Universal Advanced and Sustained spells, or must they be learned through other means?

Answer: No, as stated in the Talent you only gain access to Base Universal spells, you must take the Learn Spell Talent to learn any of the Universal Advanced spells. The exception to this is when you gain both Prestidigitation and Arcane/Divine Spell casting at the same step during character generation, in which case you ALSO learn all the Universal Advanced and Sustained spells. Arcane and Divine Archtypes are granted both of those spells during the Archtype step, Expert and Martial Archtypes that are permitted to learn Arcane/Divine Casting through a Background may take both Talents during step 9 of character creation. However, Experts that take Prestidigitation during step 9 must qualify for the Talent normally."

As such I would learn towards no, but it would be good to know. Possibly worth bringing up in the rules discussion section though for an official answer.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


pg 342 of the core rule book, in the very first section (third paragraph, though really it is a stand alone sentence), "All Arcanum have access to the Universal Tradition." So I assume that means it can be chosen as one of your minor traditions during advancement to pick up unravel the thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:20 am 
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Hat
You make great points. Not a lot of time for a reply but wanted to address something. Part of my desire is to have consistency within the system so that you can build your entire concept at character generation (From a Archetype/Ability standpoint). I feel Backgrounds could be made much more general to accomplish this and leave Paths to really focusing or broadly defining your character. That way you don't need 4 backgrounds on how you gained "Arcane Casting" just 1 and you can tweak it based upon the arcane casting you want (Within guidelines given by the rules)

Example: Instead of all the 'former legionnaire, former soldier, etc' with very specific requirements and specific skills/weapons...I would love to see something like that so that characters could choose a background that broadly matches their conceptual desires and can customize it to match their mechanical desires.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:54 am 
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Alas, John, I'm not sure I can 100% agree with you. Sure, I do appreciate the 'mix and match' appeal of the 'Generic to the point of no identity' backgrounds and what it does to character creation, as well as giving a far more broad appeal for not-Arcanis gaming using the rules, but one thing the present ARPG rules do is let you build characters IN UNIVERSE. To be honest, I don't like the generic "Former Soldier" background as it doesn't fit within the rules as they are written were Legionnaire gets a separate category, but it is meant as a general catchall to save space I imagine.

As for the Arcanum, I know that for your build and desires you want an 'easy' way of acquiring magic, but there is nothing within the Arcanis Canon as it stands which implies that any Tom/Dick/Marius can learn arcane casting via the Eldritch and Elder sources. We have plenty of fluff which implies that it is an inborn talent/gene which lets you do this, and the rules reflect this. On the other side, all Vals have the ability to become Psionically active (a racial trait), anyone can (in theory) learn the Cants of the Gods because that is how they were designed, anyone can make a 'deal with the devil' and become a Primal caster, but Eldritch and Elder are not like that. Sure, in 3.5 days anyone could become a wizard, but remember that the 3.5 rules had to be crowbarred into the game (or visca versa) and that trope isn't found in Arcanis presently.

As to the 'desire is to have consistency within the system so that you can build your entire concept at character generation' comment, Pedro and Henry have always stated that not everything is created equal. Total freedom looks attractive (and if they ever do a generic ARPG engine like D&D 5ed, they'd have to), but in a specific universe with specific rules, you need to make the rules support the realities of the universe too.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:01 pm 

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Harliquinn wrote:
<snip>I feel Backgrounds could be made much more general to accomplish this and leave Paths to really focusing or broadly defining your character. That way you don't need 4 backgrounds on how you gained "Arcane Casting" just 1 and you can tweak it based upon the arcane casting you want (Within guidelines given by the rules)

Example: Instead of all the 'former legionnaire, former soldier, etc' with very specific requirements and specific skills/weapons...I would love to see something like that so that characters could choose a background that broadly matches their conceptual desires and can customize it to match their mechanical desires.


I think it can work both ways. There are certainly more general backgrounds such as Former Soldier. There are more flavorful backgrounds such as Former Legionnaire. People being exposed to the system for the first time or looking for inspiration may not want to do all of the background reading to help settle them in the world before they pick a character concept. Things like these more specialized backgrounds help ground players and characters into the larger world and the especially the story of the world that is one of the strongest points of Arcanis.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Nierite wrote:
Alas, John, I'm not sure I can 100% agree with you. Sure, I do appreciate the 'mix and match' appeal of the 'Generic to the point of no identity' backgrounds and what it does to character creation, as well as giving a far more broad appeal for not-Arcanis gaming using the rules, but one thing the present ARPG rules do is let you build characters IN UNIVERSE. To be honest, I don't like the generic "Former Soldier" background as it doesn't fit within the rules as they are written were Legionnaire gets a separate category, but it is meant as a general catchall to save space I imagine.


Cody,
First, I don't want there to be confusion that I'm advocating removing identity from backgrounds. I'm actually proposing to 'increase' identity in the Backgrounds by offering players ways to customize the existing backgrounds to suit their character concept and further their identity.

As an example, say my concept is a Former Street Urchin. Currently, there is a Background for that which offers very specific Skills and Talents. However, my vision for an Urchin was more of a Break and Entering type, who had good athletics, deceit, perception, lockpicking, and could use a dagger well. In the current system, I could either pick the "Former Street Urchin" background and take what the author of that Background feels is the iconic Street Urchin (though it doesn't really advance the skills I want) OR I could scour all the backgrounds for what fits my concept mechanically and then 'rename' or 'reflavor' it if possible. I would just like to see more 'flexibility' within each Background and have fewer and allow characters to build their concept and identity without having to artificially fit within a confined background.

Some backgrounds which I feel are written really well are: Former Soldier (You can customize this to your own identity, it doesn't have to be presented in character as a generic soldier) and Minstrel. Some I feel are pidgeonholed based upon the skills/talents when the 'concept' of the background could be highly varied between characters: Sailor (Talent wise, skills are decent), Performer (Not every performer is a liar), Vagabond (Such fixed skills for such a broad type of character), Bodyguard (Why not give a choice of Battle or Mettle for this as well? Those are obvious good choices for a bodyguard to have).

Neirite wrote:
As for the Arcanum, I know that for your build and desires you want an 'easy' way of acquiring magic, but there is nothing within the Arcanis Canon as it stands which implies that any Tom/Dick/Marius can learn arcane casting via the Eldritch and Elder sources. We have plenty of fluff which implies that it is an inborn talent/gene which lets you do this, and the rules reflect this. On the other side, all Vals have the ability to become Psionically active (a racial trait), anyone can (in theory) learn the Cants of the Gods because that is how they were designed, anyone can make a 'deal with the devil' and become a Primal caster, but Eldritch and Elder are not like that. Sure, in 3.5 days anyone could become a wizard, but remember that the 3.5 rules had to be crowbarred into the game (or visca versa) and that trope isn't found in Arcanis presently.


I'm not looking for an 'easy' way. I'm looking for a way to have access to magic at character generation. In my opinion, having a background that unlocks "Rudimentary Arcane Casting" only is far from 'easy'. You still need to invest 3 Talents: Rudimentary Arcane Casting, Arcane Spell Casting, and Prestidigitation (likely) to get full casting. That's quite an investment, but it does allow the character to cast spells at character generation.

Given that there is a path that gives this exact thing, and assuming that gaining a Rank and therefore a potential Path represents maybe a month of in game time of adventuring (To earn 1000 XP), I'm not sure from a 'fluff' perspective why it's so unrealistic to have spent 10-15 years of your early life unlocking the very basic, rudimentary ways to channel arcane energy (using a background with an Expert or Martial Archetype) but perfectly fine to have spent about a month to do the same after you'd devote the earlier part of your life doing something else.

Nierite wrote:
As to the 'desire is to have consistency within the system so that you can build your entire concept at character generation' comment, Pedro and Henry have always stated that not everything is created equal. Total freedom looks attractive (and if they ever do a generic ARPG engine like D&D 5ed, they'd have to), but in a specific universe with specific rules, you need to make the rules support the realities of the universe too.


I would better be able to believe this if just about every option wasn't already available. There are few limitations on Backgrounds, Talents, Paths due to restrictions on race or archetype. Mostly things are limited by the Talents and Skills you choose. Sure there are some hard and fast rules (e.g. Can't have both Arcane and Divine casting) but generally almost anyone can do almost anything, with a few notable (but important) exceptions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see a ton of restrictions in the system as it is now, so I'm not sure why the concepts presented are the ones to break the camel's back so to speak.

John

_________________
- John Bellando

Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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