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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:06 pm 
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Harliquinn wrote:
Nierite wrote:
@ Harliquinn: Which does fit the character that Arcane Spell Casting ability is a rare ability, while Divine and Primal is a learned or imbued ability.


I don't recall Arcane being 'rare', only dangerous. My understanding is that Eldritch was a 'learned' ability and 'Elder' is an imbued ability, so by that rationale there *should* be a Background to have learned them in your past.

John


My understanding (Henry?) is that they are BOTH genetic, inborn talents. This is supported by the Apprentice Arcanist Path:

Quote:
Apprentice Arcanist
“Although the spark of Arcane Potential was recognized
later in your life, you will be placed under the tutelage of an
experienced Magus, if for no other reason than to prepare you
for the night the Harvesters of Ymandragore arrive to steal you
away.” – Oren Svart, Magus of the Sanctorum


The only mechanical difference between Elder and Eldritch is the level of discipline needed to harness the power. Eldritch is you needing to know what you are doing and make an 'educated guess', while Elder requires you to have the mental discipline to do complex magical formulae in your head.

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Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:11 pm 
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Hat wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
<snip>The problem is for Arcane, there are *very* limited options for an Expert to take Arcane Spell Casting at character generation. There is I think 1 background (For Shamans) that give it.
John


This isn't a problem, it's a good design choice. CoH opened up Psionics meaning the only 2 Arcane casting options not available to starting experts are Eldritch and Elder. Honestly I think that the only way that Prestidigitation should grant Unravel the Thread and Move Object is if it is granted by the Arcane or Divine Archetype. Requiring a non-casting specific archetype to spend extra talents on them seems very appropriate. For one thing there's no requirement to ever take those spells. For another, there should be clear mechanical benefits for each Archetype selection.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


I have no problem with Unravel being limited to Arcane/Divine Archetypes. I think Move Object is basically 'prestidigitation' and should be available as a Universal Spell but that's a different discussion. However, I just think that allowing some Arcane Backgrounds but not others is an arbitrary limitation without much any basis in the time it takes to learn, etc.. Considering there's a path you can take right at Tier 1.1 that gives it, and you've been adventuring in that time, it just doesn't make sense other than from a mechanical perspective.

To be clear, I would be thrilled with a Background that just unlocked Rudimentary Arcane Casting. It doesn't even have to give the talent. This still requires a lot more investment than an Arcane character, but at least makes it possible to start that way.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:57 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
Hat wrote:
I expect that's because you can't start with full casting as a Elder or Eldritch caster as an Expert. You can with Primal, Sarishan Sorcerer-Priest and Psionics now using the Undisciplined Psion from CoH.


As a note, you can't have any casting at the end of character creation with Undisciplined Psion. It is verboten.

I think expert is extremely strong since they can get all the skills they want with only 3 advancement slots. Arcane/Divine/martial all have to use 4 slots to get all their advancement opportunities, which is very expensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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toodeep wrote:
As a note, you can't have any casting at the end of character creation with Undisciplined Psion. It is verboten.


Thanks for the reminder about the change with the latest errata. It still opens that door and doesn't require a Path expenditure, but you're right - characters still need to take Prestidigitation and ASC: Psionics over the course of 2 advancements after play starts.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:23 pm 
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Hat wrote:
toodeep wrote:
As a note, you can't have any casting at the end of character creation with Undisciplined Psion. It is verboten.


Thanks for the reminder about the change with the latest errata. It still opens that door and doesn't require a Path expenditure, but you're right - characters still need to take Prestidigitation and ASC: Psionics over the course of 2 advancements after play starts.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


I think this would be a good way to handle Eldritch or Elder casting too. Just make Rudimentary Casting 'unlimited' with a background and it still requires heavy investment.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:51 pm 
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As has been discussed elsewhere, the advancements for the Divine archetype need to be a little more attractive (especially that 3rd skill advancement option).

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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:10 pm 
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As a divine, I never use it. Hell, the only thing Divine gives me that nothing else does is 1) spell casting progression, and 2) Devout Talents.

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Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
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Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:18 am 
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I wrote up a fancy description of all the ways I see that a character can meet requirements to cast spells in the ARPG system. It's a Microsoft Word document, though, and it seems we can't post files to these forums (which is a major bummer). I can email it to campaign staff, Paradigm, or anyone else interested. I've thought about sending a copy to the Stat Monkey to confirm if my understanding matches his intentions, but I have the impression that he barely has time to breathe these days, much less look at something like that.

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Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:26 am 
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Harliquinn wrote:
...snip...I have no problem with Unravel being limited to Arcane/Divine Archetypes. I think Move Object is basically 'prestidigitation' and should be available as a Universal Spell but that's a different discussion. ...snip...

Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu...but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.

Harliquinn wrote:
...snip...To be clear, I would be thrilled with a Background that just unlocked Rudimentary Arcane Casting. It doesn't even have to give the talent. This still requires a lot more investment than an Arcane character, but at least makes it possible to start that way.


Hmmm. Noted. I'll work something up and add it to my (growing) list of "new crunch" that's waiting for either a home game or a submission call from PCI.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:59 am 
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val Holryn wrote:
Harliquinn wrote:
...snip...I have no problem with Unravel being limited to Arcane/Divine Archetypes. I think Move Object is basically 'prestidigitation' and should be available as a Universal Spell but that's a different discussion. ...snip...

Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu...but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.

Harliquinn wrote:
...snip...To be clear, I would be thrilled with a Background that just unlocked Rudimentary Arcane Casting. It doesn't even have to give the talent. This still requires a lot more investment than an Arcane character, but at least makes it possible to start that way.


Hmmm. Noted. I'll work something up and add it to my (growing) list of "new crunch" that's waiting for either a home game or a submission call from PCI.


Eric
Actually I already had a few ideas on it, but never fleshed it out due to not knowing when or if submissions were being taken for a book.

JOhn

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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