Paradigm Concepts :: View topic - Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells

Body of Light

Body of the Warrior combined with Galdius of Light
others.

Effect: For the remainder of the Scene, your unarmed attacks are a speed 4 weapon that deal d4 (Might) + d6 (Primary) damage to Undead, Spirits, and Infernals.

Two weapon die; take the highest due to stacking rules.

A cursory look seems to indicate that the advanced spell is not actually an improvement over simply adapting GoL for increased damage. There are some other things I didn't look at here, such as the fact that Blade of Our Lord is considered an actual Flamberge, so Weapon Mastery and other similar abilities should apply. This could potentially add another die bump to damage, which would come closer to evening out the numbers.

There is also the consideration that with two attribute dice rolling for damage, you are statistically twice as likely to get exploding damage.

The AR bypassing components of Blade of Our Lord are made irrelevant by the fact that GoL would make the advanced spell not affect living enemies who might have those ARs, and GoL bypasses all AR of the creatures it does affect. As the damage is partially fire, however, it should do additional damage to any enemies who have a fire vulnerability (rare as that is).

I think you are missing the limiting text in gladius of light that says "Though it is shaped as a Gladius it has no real weight or balance, making it impossible to use any of the Gladius weapon tricks while wielding a Gladius of Light."

I would argue that that is limiting text, and thus by the rules it applies to both versions of the spell. Therefore, your flamberge of flaming light is flaming light, and not a real flamberge, and thus no weapon tricks.

And sadly, though it makes no sense, it seems to me that it would both only effect nonliving enemies, and would not bypass all their AR anymore, because of the way the combining rules work. It would only bypass half their worn armor and all their fire AR. You gain the worst of both worlds - some AR and only being able to hit limited beings. The question is whether the additional die of damage is worth not getting through their AR.

Author:	toodeep [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
Body of Light Body of the Warrior combined with Galdius of Light Tradition: Heritage (Val)/Transmutation [Tier I] Category: Advanced CTN: 24 Speed (Strain): 2 (+6) Range: Self Duration: Scene With the completion of this spell you imbue your body with the light of the gods. The light empowers your fists against the impure and armors your body, but renders you harmless to all others. Effect: For the remainder of the Scene, your unarmed attacks are a speed 4 weapon that deal d6 (Might) (Primary) damage to Undead, Spirits, and Infernals. You also gain Natural AR of 2. When used against Entropic creatures the d6 becomes a d8 for damage. Your attacks become harmless against all other creatures and you can amaze your friends by harmlessly thrusting your fists into their chest! Great for parties! Adaptation: Increase the CTN and Speed by 1, and Strain by 4 to increase the Natural AR provided to 3. Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 3 to imbue both fist with the ability to attack undead, spirits and infernals (fight two-handed). Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 3 and Strain by 1 to apply a Die Bump to the base d6/d8 damage die. This Adaptation may be applied multiple times. Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 5 to add your passive Resolve Modifier to all damage rolls.

Author:	Southernskies [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
toodeep wrote: Body of Light Body of the Warrior combined with Galdius of Light others. Effect: For the remainder of the Scene, your unarmed attacks are a speed 4 weapon that deal d4 (Might) + d6 (Primary) damage to Undead, Spirits, and Infernals. Two weapon die; take the highest due to stacking rules.

Author:	toodeep [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
Southernskies wrote: Two weapon die; take the highest due to stacking rules. Fixed. Now the question is whether you can pass harmlessly through doors... (I wish)

Author:	acurrier [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
So for the original example with Blade of our Lord, against an Entropic enemy would the damage be 1d10 (Mi) plus 1d8 (Primary)? Or would it be 1d10 (Mi) (Primary)? This is where I tend to get confused when doing these advanced spells. Figuring out what stays and what is overridden.

Author:	Southernskies [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
1d10 (Mi)(Primary) Still very powerful attack.

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Author:	acurrier [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
Okay, makes sense with the stacking rules. I just re-read the Advanced spells section, it does appear that the entire spell would fail to affect living/inanimate objects. It is a little counter-intuitive, but the rules are fairly clear. Just doing a little math here to see if the higher CTN actually makes the advanced spell worth it. Assuming a d8 Might and d10 Primary with passive Resolve of 3. Using the following average values: 1d6 - 3.5 1d8 - 4.5 1d10 - 5.5 1d12 - 6.5 2d6 - 7 Base spell: Gladius of Light Base CTN: 18 Base Effect: 1d6 (Primary) damage OR 1d8 (Primary) damage as a speed 4 attack. Average of 9 OR 10 damage every 4 ticks, 27 OR 30 damage every 12 ticks. Adapted CTN: 27 (three applications of increased damage) Adapted Effect: 1d12 (Primary) damage OR 2d6 (Primary) damage as a speed 4 attack Average of 12 OR 12.5 damage every 4 ticks, 36 OR 37.5 damage every 12 ticks. Adapted CTN: 29 (two applications of increased damage and adaptation that adds passive Resolve to damage) Adapted Effect: 1d10 (Primary)+3 damage OR 1d12 (Primary)+3 damage as a speed 4 attack Average of 14 OR 15 damage every 4 ticks, 42 OR 45 damage every 12 ticks. Advanced spell: Nier's Touch Base CTN: 26 Base Effect: 1d10 (Mi) (Primary) damage as a speed 6 attack. Average of 15.5 damage every 6 ticks, or 31 damage every 12 ticks. Adapted CTN: 29 (Exceptional weapon adaptation) Adapted Effect: 1d10 (Mi) (Primary)+1 damage as a speed 5 attack Average of 16.5 damage every 5 ticks, or 39.6 damage every 12 ticks. A cursory look seems to indicate that the advanced spell is not actually an improvement over simply adapting GoL for increased damage. There are some other things I didn't look at here, such as the fact that Blade of Our Lord is considered an actual Flamberge, so Weapon Mastery and other similar abilities should apply. This could potentially add another die bump to damage, which would come closer to evening out the numbers. There is also the consideration that with two attribute dice rolling for damage, you are statistically twice as likely to get exploding damage. The AR bypassing components of Blade of Our Lord are made irrelevant by the fact that GoL would make the advanced spell not affect living enemies who might have those ARs, and GoL bypasses all AR of the creatures it does affect. As the damage is partially fire, however, it should do additional damage to any enemies who have a fire vulnerability (rare as that is).

Author:	acurrier [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
Just on a whim, going to re-do the math for the Advanced spell with the assumption that Might is a d10 instead of a d8 Advanced spell: Nier's Touch Base CTN: 26 Base Effect: 1d10 (Mi) (Primary) damage as a speed 6 attack. Average of 16.5 damage every 6 ticks, or 33 damage every 12 ticks. Adapted CTN: 29 (Exceptional weapon adaptation) Adapted Effect: 1d10 (Mi) (Primary)+1 damage as a speed 5 attack Average of 17.5 damage every 5 ticks, or 42 damage every 12 ticks.

Author:	toodeep [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
acurrier wrote: A cursory look seems to indicate that the advanced spell is not actually an improvement over simply adapting GoL for increased damage. There are some other things I didn't look at here, such as the fact that Blade of Our Lord is considered an actual Flamberge, so Weapon Mastery and other similar abilities should apply. This could potentially add another die bump to damage, which would come closer to evening out the numbers. There is also the consideration that with two attribute dice rolling for damage, you are statistically twice as likely to get exploding damage. The AR bypassing components of Blade of Our Lord are made irrelevant by the fact that GoL would make the advanced spell not affect living enemies who might have those ARs, and GoL bypasses all AR of the creatures it does affect. As the damage is partially fire, however, it should do additional damage to any enemies who have a fire vulnerability (rare as that is). I think you are missing the limiting text in gladius of light that says "Though it is shaped as a Gladius it has no real weight or balance, making it impossible to use any of the Gladius weapon tricks while wielding a Gladius of Light." I would argue that that is limiting text, and thus by the rules it applies to both versions of the spell. Therefore, your flamberge of flaming light is flaming light, and not a real flamberge, and thus no weapon tricks. I'm not sure if that rules out weapon mastery, however. That would apply to any way you cast the base spell, too of course, so it is unclear if someone with weapon mastery gladius (or any other weapon really) can use weapon mastery to bump the spell damage of the base spell gladius of light. And sadly, though it makes no sense, it seems to me that it would both only effect nonliving enemies, and would not bypass all their AR anymore, because of the way the combining rules work. It would only bypass half their worn armor and all their fire AR. You gain the worst of both worlds - some AR and only being able to hit limited beings. The question is whether the additional die of damage is worth not getting through their AR.

Author:	acurrier [ Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Using Gladius of Light in Advanced Spells
toodeep wrote: I think you are missing the limiting text in gladius of light that says "Though it is shaped as a Gladius it has no real weight or balance, making it impossible to use any of the Gladius weapon tricks while wielding a Gladius of Light." No, take a look at the original post. It is in there. Perhaps this is something that should receive official clarification, but there is a difference between weapon tricks and martial maneuvers, as well as tricks and weapon talents. Blade of Our Lord specifies that the weapon created is for all intent and purpose a flamberge, so short of an official ruling otherwise I would argue that Weapon Mastery applies, and that martial techniques (but not weapon tricks) can be used. toodeep wrote: I would argue that that is limiting text, and thus by the rules it applies to both versions of the spell. Therefore, your flamberge of flaming light is flaming light, and not a real flamberge, and thus no weapon tricks. If you are correct, and it is possible, then the attack speed 4 from the Gladius of Light spell should override the Blade of Our Lord. toodeep wrote: And sadly, though it makes no sense, it seems to me that it would both only effect nonliving enemies, and would not bypass all their AR anymore, because of the way the combining rules work. It would only bypass half their worn armor and all their fire AR. You gain the worst of both worlds - some AR and only being able to hit limited beings. The question is whether the additional die of damage is worth not getting through their AR. I disagree. That is the entire point of the Gladius of Light. It is a spell effect, not a limiting condition. It would have to carry over, otherwise what would be the point of combining it with other spells?

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