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 Post subject: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic colors?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:41 pm 
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As the subject says, I'm trying to find out what the lore-appropriate tunic and cloak (sagum) colors should be.

I know the trim colors - that gold trim is reserved for Val Patricians, etc. I need to know the base color of a patrician legionnaire's tunic though - judging by the artwork of the female Coryani Warmage iconic, I'm guessing white? Is that correct?

That leaves the color of the cloak/sagum - I've traditionally seen them as a deep, imperial red - but is that always the color? Do different legions have different colors, or would a Patrician legionnaire's cloak be the color associated their family (Purple for val'Mehan, Brown for val'Mordane, Grey for val'Tensen, etc). If different legions use different colors, then should I presume them to be associated with the legion's patron deity (Illiir=Imperial Red, Sarish = Purple, Neroth = Brown, Saluwe = Green, etc)?

My gut is telling me that all legionnaires wear red, because that is the color I've always seen in the artwork (with the exception of Calmemnon I think?). However, most of the color artwork I've seen has been of specific NPCs (IE: Menesis), and as the Defender of the Empire he would probably wear Imperial Red regardless of family or legion.

Anyway, I just wanted to confirm that my understanding is correct: white tunics with appropriate social-status trim, red sagum regardless of legion/deity/patron.

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 Post subject: Re: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic col
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:53 am 
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It is referenced in quite a few places in the books. Red cloaks are the exclusive right of Legionnaire's to wear within the Coryani Empire. A plebeian wearing one is likely to be killed on sight by a soldier catching them.

The off-white tunic is mostly due to the cost of dye. As you go up in status, most colours would appear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_in_ancient_Rome

There is a list of colours somewhere that are associated with deities (the 3.0 Codex Arcanis deities entry from memory).

For formal occasions, a Coryani Patrician would wear a pure white tunic and toga (with trim).
Less formal is more likely to be any colour of tunic, Lorica of choice (often Musculata) and red cloak.

Trying to wear a toga and cloak and the same time would be... messy.

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 Post subject: Re: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic col
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:58 am 
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Thanks, that is what I thought - I just wanted to make sure, because all my knowledge is from the d20 days and a great deal of things were retconned/clarified/adjusted between then and now.

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- Jacqualine Alicia C.

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Ser Heidi val'Tensen, AKA Ser Adelheidis Sigrid val'Tensen of Moratavia


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 Post subject: Re: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic col
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:02 pm 

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I vaguely remember the discussion we had some time back at one of the cons as on the battlefield or in armor/"war"time settings, you wore a command red sagum because your name and distinctions (aside from the gold trim of an officer) were less recognized. Legion above individual.

In formal (non-armored)/"peace" settings, you wore what amounted to the toga praetexta trimmed with gold for nobility and the traditional purple stripes replaced with the colors of your deity (or accordant family, if Val). Alternatively, the pallium of said deity color was oft worn instead, with trim of gold for nobility.

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Belthazor Nádasdy val'Mehen of Nishanpur, Bearer of "False Yet True", Noble Born Sorcerer-Priest of Sarish, val'Mehan Emissary


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 Post subject: Re: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic col
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:13 am 
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I pretty much agree with everything said above.

Cloak is Red. And I don’t think it’s trimmed with other colors. Incidentally citizens of Rome in the days of the republic wore a red cloak & Tunic in times of war, not just those deployed “abroad” in the Legions. (See the SPQR mystery books). Togas were for times of peace. This probably changed during the period of empire. And it’s possible that things may get tweaked in Arcanis. I could see a legionnaire of the watchful hunter wearing a black cloak on a stealth mission at night. “For parade purposes” I would assume the same legionnaire would wear red. There is also an argument to be made that an off base/off duty legionnaire wouldn’t wear the red cloak while away from Legion business.

I don’t think a foreigner wearing a red cloak would get stabbed on the streets of Coryan. I do think a Patrician wearing a red cloak, who never served, is functionally presenting a false claim to having been in the Legions. So I think context counts a lot. Walking into a “Legionaire’s Bar” with a red cloak you obviously don’t deseve is probably a provocation.

There is also standard issue red (ocher?) as opposed to the “Scarlet Red” a Larissian priestess might wear. But again context matters. I don’t think the average Legionaire has much trouble differentiating between a Larissian’s red cloak and a legionaires. Do some foreigners coming to Coryan make the odd mistake in this regard? Possibly. Probably not more than once ...

I think tunics are a whole different kettle of fish. So far as I know they are a lot less “regulated.” Undyed cloth is the norm for rank and file members and was the standard in Rome so far as I know. But there is no reason that a Legion with a wealthy patron couldn’t have a different color scheme. Or wealthy individuals. Again, I think the Legion of the Watchful Hunter is often depicted as has black armor and tunics for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic col
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:50 am 
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Per the ARG book, both Coryan AND Altheria use red cloaks to denote their military. Since 1) Altheria did not leave the Empire as violently as the rest, 2) maintains ties to the Mother Church, and 3) there are many Coryani serving in the Shining Patrol, I am sure they wouldn't mind seeing Altherians in that colour on the street ;)

[Cody's completely unofficial over-analysis of Arcanis culture time!]

To the concept of clothes and colour, ancient peoples in our world were VERY tied into the colours they wore. Dyes were expensive, and so were certain fabrics, but moreso the clothes you wore were your identification in society. People who wore clothes "above their station" (like a commoner wearing purple, a royal colour) were considered to be liars or charlatans because they were publically proclaiming themselves to be something they weren't. Two good examples of this are the Toga, which was an Etruscan and later Roman way of separating themselves from their neighbouring cultures, and the ponchos worn in the Inca Empire which proclaimed what region you came from. Remember, this is before photo ID was a thing, so what you wore was the equivalent of having a passport.

In Arcanis, there are a few markers of this. As stated, the Toga is a mark of Coryani, and specificially Coryani citizenship. The coloured stripe then would denote what grade of citizen you are, with the gold representing Patrician Imperialis, the highest. The Coryani breakaway states of Altheria, Canceri, and Milandir do not use this system at all, but have other social ways of reinforcing social status within their nation (such as the Milandisian Pact of Oaths and the tabards worn, likely bearing some device to identify loyalty to a feudal lord).

Colour gets more complicated in Arcanis because of the strong association of colours with religion, rather than simple "purple dye is expensive so it is a mark of wealth." Different colours would be associated (most likely) with the different aspects of the Gods, and if we follow that than white is the "royal colour" among humanity because of the association with Illiir, while purple could be the colour of law and magic and the like because of the association with Sarish. We see a lot of pictures of Coryani patricians wearing snowy-white togas and tunics, which could be a purposeful (though likely an incidental) representation of this. That said, there have been references in Arcanis lore which contradict this, such as stating that black is a colour of mourning even though the two Gods most associated with it are Neroth (brown) and Beltine (yellow).

Overall, it not perfect system.

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
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 Post subject: Re: Lore-appropriate Coryani legionnaire cloak and tunic col
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:42 am 
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Location: Temple of the Pantheon, First City
I noticed a problem with our agreed upon color schema...

Page 149 of Forged in Magic Reforged 5e shows art of what is clearly a Coryani legion wearing all blue - the only speck of red being the plume of the Centurion. At first I thought "well, maybe these are supposed to be the legion of Milandisia before they seceded..." since it is on the same page as the dolphin banner, but that doesn't jive since the dolphin banner is depicted in the art on page 148... and also the architecture is clearly coryani, and the Hawk flying overhead further emphasizes that association. I then thought that maybe the depicted legion was actually auxilia, but it clearly has the sort of bannermen etc that would belong only in a proper legion.

So the only conclusions I can draw are that only one of the following is correct:
    1. The art is in error
    2. The art is actually of an Almerican legion depicted in former Ulfia
    3. We, the fanbase, are in error on the importance of the color Red in the Coryani Empire

My gut tells me that the second option is the correct one, but a lot of material from the first campaign has been updated - so it could be the third option instead. Maybe Henry could weigh in and confirm for us (pretty please)?

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- Jacqualine Alicia C.

5e character:
Ser Heidi val'Tensen, AKA Ser Adelheidis Sigrid val'Tensen of Moratavia


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