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 Post subject: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Talking with some other Arcaniacs today about Valinor and the Pantheon of Man. What I (think I) know for sure is that the PoM is primarily comprised of two sets of families. The first is half is Illiirs & Saluwe (and their children). The second half is Beltine & Neroth (and their children). Sarish's parentage is a little murky but acording to the party lines it's either Beltine & Neroth or Larissa & Cadic. (If you quietly suspect something happened like Neroth had sex with (or even raped) Larissa ...which might also explain why Beltine hung herself...that's very naughty and heresy!)

All of these 9 Gods have named valinor appearing in products or adventures.

There are three other "add-ons." Altheres, Anshar & Yarris who are described uncles and aunts to most of the Pantheon (and a brother or sister to one of the four elders of the Pantheon). And there are no references that I can find to any of them having valinor.

Other divinities also lack valinor. Belisarda, Kassegore and Tzizhet all get by without them.

So what's up with the 9 Gods that have Valinor? What's special to them that sets them apart from all the other divinities floating around the cosmos? I suspect it's a side effect or bonus of how they achieved apotheosis.

Well we know that they didn't create the Universe. The book of faiths from the first campaign says there was a nameless creator who died in the act of creation (that the Mother Church opinion anyway). So when did the Pantheon of Man come into being since they weren't always there.

This is where my campaign knowledge dries up. Does anyone out there have thoughts on the matter. Or references I may have missed or forgotten?

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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:24 pm 
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See:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=548

The family tree is more convoluted than it first appears, with events in pre-history intertwining with events in future-history and events in the present... <takes migraine tablet>

Sarish has FOUR parents (yes that is not a typo). Why? Something internal to the family, I think before they came to Onara. Henry has dropped hints over the years.

Belisarda, Yig and Kassegore have a different structure (and in theory, more direct link) to their worshippers.

Tzizhet has not achieved full god status yet (that we are aware of), it is an extra-planer being.

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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:04 am 

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To a certain extent I expect that depends on how the gods were "born" and how time-travel works. if the Val represent the divine spark of the gods, could it be that in the future of the present timeline, Val "evolve" into or are able to be elevated into Valinor? Could those Valinor then find a way similar to the Sorceror King to figure out how to step from being mere Valinor to gods - then go back in time to ensure that mankind was safely shepherded to Onara, etc.? Almost certainly not the answer, but anytime that time travel is introduced into a universe, the whole questions of causality, etc. run amok. There are 2 mods from the old days that at least purport to be time travel. Were they though? There are certainly other explanations that could handle them as well.

I do find the distinction between the gods with and without Valinor interesting. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if certain gods such as Yarris were simply adopted as Yig/Anshar was.

Lots of interesting questions.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:10 pm 

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Southernskies wrote:
Sarish has FOUR parents (yes that is not a typo). Why? Something internal to the family, I think before they came to Onara. Henry has dropped hints over the years.


I think this is simplifying the subject too much. Sarish doesn't have 4 parents.
His true parentage isn't know as of yet.
In the southern lands the Coryani Mother Church and the Milandric Orthodoxy say that he is child Larissa and Cadic.
But in the western lands the religion of the Divine Trinity also known as the Death Mongers believe that Sarish is the child of Beltine and Neroth. (the Blessed Lands page 193)

The thing I like to remember about information from the original Codex printed in 2001,
is that Henry wanted to tell parts of this current story even back then.
There were modules in the original campaign where players could find Keys of Man, or travel across the Blessed Lands, even journey to one of the 12 Citadels. But these story lines had to be put aside to focus on the Coryani Civil War story. They couldn't all be fit into the 6 year timeline.
He is finally getting to tell them now. And pieces of information that he gave years ago are now making sense, like why Sarish is listed as having two different mother-father couples.

We were suppose to be in the Blessed Lands during the first campaign, and meet the Death Mongers to learn about this different religious view.

As a side note. I'd be interested to know what the Kalindruhl have to say about Sarish's parentage.

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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:23 am 
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What do people think about the idea that the PoM used the Birthing Chamber of the Gods...either in the past or at some point in the future?

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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:00 pm 
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For the POM, I think it unlikely. The mythology has that humans and the POM 'arrived on the shores of Onara' from another place.

My thought is that the Birthing Chamber is where the Elemental Lords were formed by the Ssethrics and Belisarda.

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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:19 pm 

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The Vault wrote:
I think this is simplifying the subject too much. Sarish doesn't have 4 parents.
His true parentage isn't know as of yet.


I couldn't guess the specifics, but when asked, Henry specifically did say that both sets of parents were correct. Take from that what you will.

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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:22 pm 

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val Holryn wrote:
What do people think about the idea that the PoM used the Birthing Chamber of the Gods...either in the past or at some point in the future?


Interesting question. What references do we have to the Birthing Chamber of the Gods? Curious what light that might throw on it, even if only black light.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:28 pm 
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None, except the SK is seeking it and Celestial Giants in the Shadowed Age may have known of it (see the Ymandragore entry in the original Codex).

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Where does the Pantheon of Man originate from?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:58 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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val Holryn wrote:
What do people think about the idea that the PoM used the Birthing Chamber of the Gods...either in the past or at some point in the future?


I don't think the Birthing Chambers give birth to Gods, I think they are birthing chambers for powerful beings, and the Gods use the room. The meaning of the name of the room has just being misunderstood by humans over the years.
I believe that is where the Gods created the Valinor.
Either the SK wants to create something himself, or he wants to return to his place of creation for some reason, or perhaps their is a Valinor still waiting in status.
There has always been something about the reports of Valinor in the past that felt off. Neither Dwarves (Celestial Giants), or Elorii mention Valinor at all until after the PoM take over Belestor and use the Valinor to wipe out the Elorii (Akrosia comes to mind, but I can't recall if that was the first time they were seen), and then again in the Dragon Wars. When you read the Elorii version of the the arrival of the PoM, it mentions just Gods and humans in their party.
And if you believe that the Valinor did arrive with them like the human church would state, why didn't they create the Vals earlier then during the First Imperium? Why didn't they use the Valinor in the fight to take over Belestor?
Maybe I missed something but you can read all the content from the other species, you can read the modules that reveal information from the ancient past, or in the case of Vision of Lives Past take place there, no mention of winged humans until after they control the First City for a time.

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