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 Post subject: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:47 pm 

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So I want to ask this question is different stages.

1st - In Fifth edition the magical classes and their various powers seem inherently built to make them different in enough ways to represent the difference between where their magic comes from or how they understand or use the magic of the world.

Druids have a monopoly on the various weather based magics, especially the high level ones, as well as various other spells that simply fall into the category of "Druidic" magic. This shows us their mastery over such forces, and signifies that it is their domain alone. The gods that have churches are not welcome among druid circles and their ways.

Clerics, worship "Divine Beings", Gods. As gods, these beings draw power from their followers faith in them and in return grant them a small portion of their divine power to cast spells via cants or what have you. Kinda like a parasite that gives back some of the life force it stole? depending on the setting, obviously this is very different. Some gods simply exist, and people come to worship them over time. But couldn't the very first worshipers of a new god, that has no followers easily be confused for a Warlock?

Warlocks make pacts, in some "Demonic" or otherwise taboo fashion compared to simply worshiping these beings, in order to gain a portion of their "Other-Worldly" power? This power differs from clerics and druids, by the spells and abilities of the class, but forgetting that, how are they not clerics of the things they worship? Does every cleric simply gain levels and magic based on their faith alone? No, they must go out, away from their churches and do things, in order to gain levels, thus they do not spend the majority of their lives preaching. Neither do warlocks, as far as I can tell.

How do you think this works exactly? What is the difference between a warlock and a priest. Why would one not simply worship Orcus and be a Cleric of Orcus, instead of a Warlock? Why couldn't one be a Warlock of Hurrian, instead of a cleric of Hurrian?

Why couldn't a druid simply be a Cleric of Nature or a Warlock of Nature? Of course, the obvious answer is people want to play these different classes, and its just a game. Not to mention that these classes are the back bone of the core of D&D since the beginning of D&D history. However I'm exploring the deeper meaning behind these built in differences.

Your thoughts and opinions?


2nd - In ARG you can be a holy champion or otherwise divinely empowered individual by meeting and taking the appropriate talents or what have you. Obviously the standard D&D classes don't exist per say, however you can create a mock build that approximates your "class" from one D&D game or another. So considering that Arcanis is heavy on the religion aspect of fantasy...

Why cant I worship Orcus or in this case Umar or whatever the mortal foe of the Pantheon of Man is called, and do good things? While all the while using his evil "Divine, Other-Worldly, Natural" power for good, and just lie to him about why I am doing it? The gods of Arcanis are fickle, right up until they drop the tombstone on you. Like when the Undertaker sent Edge STRAIT TO HELL, in that one match on WWE! Yeah! Lol

There are no inherent, built in rules that specify if the gods or other beings can auto detect if your lying ( as far as I know ), and considering the many contradicting churches that worship the same god.. whose to say I'm in the wrong? lol.

Not to mention, I think I've known more than a few Npc's in past games that is questionable in their beliefs or tenants to their god, and yet still has spells and other benefits from their belief. Which is one of the more awesome aspects of Arcanis game play, mind you.

Still I'm curious as to what others think of this? Or if you have ideas to further expand upon what I am asking here?

Forgive my typos and run on sentences, I am only human.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:34 am 
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I don't know exactly how this will fit and synch into the 5th edition of D&D but I do have some thoughts and tentative answers for your questions.

(1) Under ARPG, and what I guess we can call in-world philosophy, all magic is most commonly thought to be tapping the residual energy of the universe left over from the Creator/act of creation. The Mother Church/PoM asserts this entity is dead. This was spelled out the original campaign in (IIRC) Magic of Arcanis. I would add my personal interpretation that the "corner of magic" that has been beaten into "a science" and works predictably for "the known world" is called the Arcanum. Lots of applications in Ymandragore (and even more exotic locations) are strange a wonderful even to experienced casters.

(2) People believe ALL magical sources derive from this origin. This is true for Cants and priests as well as psions, shamanism and "wizards." Thus from a certain perspective priests are essentially a kind of church sponsored wizard. In Arcanis they do NOT get their powers by channeling an infinitesimal portion of divine power. They use rote learning to keep and pass on the arcane formulas given to them by the Gods or Their Valinor in the Mythic Age or dawn of the First Imperium.

(3) what makes Cants different are (a) Priests don't know how to really modify them to create advanced spells or new spells. If mankind was meant to know how to do something with the Arcanum then *somewhere* the right Can't was left to work that miracle. Also (b) Cants require true faith in the Gods to "pull the trigger" on their spells. No faith in the Gods? Can't use Cants. A cynic or mourner might say, "It's almost like the Gods don't trust us with the unfettered magic ..."

(4) what makes Druidism/Shamanism/Warlock-ery different that "wizardry" is that the practitioner makes pacts with various beings to do a lot of the arcane heavy lifting. This frees oneself from needing a PhD in Magical Theory and in the case of "Humanity" frees one from the debilitating effects of using the gift. The bad news is you get saddled with Taboos and potentially have to keep your spirits happy so they keep helping you. In extreme cases this might mean selling your soul.

(5) what makes Eldritch/Elder different is you do it all on your own. No safety nets. On the down side if you screw up badly while tinkering with the Arcanum you blow yourself up. On the plus side if you live long enough to figure it all out then you cut and paste parts of known spells together how ever you like - and don't have to worry about what Gods, Temples or Spirits think of your choices. For Eldritch practitioners the guesstimating you make take a toll on your body over the years in the form of the wasting disease.

(6) What makes psionics different is you process the left over energy of creation biologically rather than through mentally plumbing the metaphysics of reality. Go strange glands in Val heads! Through concentration (and essentially solipsism) you then alter reality (in very limited ways) to match your desires.

Sooo... On to some of your questions...

WHY CAN'T I BE A PRIEST of ORCUS: presumably Orcus does not know, and thus can't teach, Cants. This Is/Was certainly true for Uhxbractit who is probably the best campaign world analogy. He may have people who worship him in dark ceremonies that somewhat mirror the Temples of the Pantheon of Man BUT they are cultists not priests and any magical powers are going to be from a Shamanistic/warlocky tradition. They probably kill you when you "try to do good things." You can, on your own, worship Orcus. But unless you are doing what he wants he isn't granting you powers as a patron. There is also the fact the Inquisition or Knights will kill you when they learn what you are doing. Seriously. Guy tried to wear a "cursed" Robe of Eyes (from the 1,000 Eyed Man) to the first LARP in King Osric's Court. Guy lost his PC. Major Power Centers have no sense of humor about heresy. Choices have consequences. Even in the First City they don't tolerate cults that are actively evil.

WHY CAN'T I WORSHIP the OTHER: ...uh. Well you can if you really want to. But there are no Cants that have survived into the modern day (at least where PCs can find them). So you really can't be an initiate in the divine sense. Most people don't worship the OTHER because it could get you in trouble & make you a pariah or flat out get you killed (definitely in Coryan & Canceri). In the First City you wouldn't be killed for being a lay follower. Kind of an interesting idea.

WHY CAN'T I WORSHIP a ROCK: Kind of Covers everything else and ...uh. There is a whole tribe of Ss'ressen who do. It's not a God, can't teach Cants, and thus they can't cast divine spells or take divine paths. But at least they have some safety in numbers.

Hope that helps

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:16 pm 
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The one fundemental error (if you can call it that) is that 5e was designed to be a generic roleplaying game system. It fits better in WotC-owned properties like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms as those systems use the 'mythos' which the system uses, but the very fact that in 5e it lists real life gods like Thor implies that the writers intended this system to be used for lots of different things.

Unfortunately, when a game system is designed to be broadly applicable, metaphysical constants and logic falls apart by necessity. You simply cannot apply consistency to it because it is designed to be inconsistent, so you can make it your own. As such, the 'overlap' of Cleric, Druid, and Warlock in terms of fluff was a massively secondary concern to WotC as they focused on giving you mechanics to play with, with a tissue-thin veneer of fluff to give direction on how to make a campaign.

Now, to the more specific Arcanis related questions:

Because these classes are designed to be broadly applicable, they don't accurately reflect the realities and metaphysics of the world of Arcanis, which is one reason PCI is planning on releasing a "Players Guide to 5e Arcanis" (eventually, when some kinks are worked out on many fronts from legal to mechanical) to help crowbar in systems not designed in this world into the universe where they make something resembling sense. This is why, ultimately, PCI made the ARG system because they could design mechanics better representing PCI's view of the world and not have to rely on the square-peg that was 3.5 (or, at the time, 4e which was some sort of non-Euclidean shape) into the round hole of the world of Arcanis.

Now, that taken and being heavily stated, there is SOME logic that we can apply, much of which echos Eric's statements.

1) All magic in Arcanis comes from the same source, and would better be equated with the Force from Star Wars than a bunch of desperate, but functionally equivalent types of sorcery.

2) Primal magic users (druids and warlocks/shamans) are not inherently capable of manipulating the Arcanum/Force, and make pacts with powerful beings who naturally CAN manipulate the Arcanum/Force to grant them the ability to channel that powerful being's magical powers. These beings can be worshiped as gods, but in the cosmology of Arcanis this would be like worshiping a manticore or a sphinx as a god.

3) Divine magic users (clerics, priests, holy champions, etc) are also not inherently capable of manipulating the arcanum, but unlike Shamans who make pacts with powerful creatures/beings, priests have secret holy books that are basically "Magical Recipe Books" which tell them exactly what to say, how to move their hands, etc in order to cast specific magical spells. The thing which keeps everyone to from doing this is that these 'magical formulas' require a metaphysical component which cannot be replicated otherwise: Faith. You need to have faith and believe in the god as a 'spell component' to make these things work, otherwise anyone can do it.

4) Elder and Eldritch mages (sorcerers and wizards) have the genetic/metaphysical ability to directly manipulate the arcanum. While clerics/priests are given the 'idiot's guide' to magic where they simply have to follow these simple steps to cast magic (with caveats), Eldritch and Elder mages have to do the heavy mental lifting and metaphysical math to manipulate the arcanum. In this case, the differences between Eldritch and Elder follows the 3.5 versions of Sorcerer and Wizard (to an extent), were Eldritch casters cannot handle the math in their heads as it is too complicated for their short-lived brains to comprehend, but are kind of like savantes where they 'feel' their way through the magic. Elder mages are more like wizards where they study for ages and are able to do the mental math in order to cast the spell. The differences here would be like a person who is, for example, an autistic savante who naturally understands math even if they can't explain it and a person with a Ph.D. in math.

5) Psionic mages are those who are touched with a lesser form of divinity, and simply have in inherent ability to do magic. They don't have to do the math like Elder or Eldritch, they simply have to have the mental discipline to 'make it so'. It is magic through will and not thought, and is limited to val's and a limited number of others because it is a very unique way of manipulating the arcanum.

Now, moving onto your philosophical views of the gods:

There is nothing metaphysically stopping you from being a priest of an 'evil' god and doing good things. The whole point of Arcanis is that it is a world of grey. Take Neroth as an example: some of his priests are vile necromancers who torture people for the fun of it, while others are the traditional Lawful Good Paladins who seek to fight evil wherever it comes as a penance for an evil act performed by Neroth eons ago. As far as Neroth is concerned, both of these aspects fall into his wheelhouse, and he offers no moral judgement because his sense of morals transcends that of us lesser mortals.

All Arcanis God are True Neutral, and all Arcanis Gods are functionally omniscient if not technically. There have been no known ways of beings short of other gods to 'lie' to another god, but in some cases you don't have to lie to a god to oppose what their followers view. The religions which worship the Pantheon of Man considers Umor to be 'evil', but that doesn't mean that he is. It is a value judgement relating to our limited views of good and evil, while Gods have a different and broader perspective. What we consider evil, like cursing the Celestial Giants for the crimes that only some of their population perpetrated would be viewed as evil by our reckonning, but Illiir (the official "Good Guy God" of the PoM) did it anyway. For Illiir, his view of Good is in protecting humanity as a whole and the Celestial Giants were evil in that they subjugated them, but from the Giant's perspective, Illiir is evil for cursing THEM because of what the Solani and Tir Betoqi Giants did (which is one reason Encali and, especially, Bealak Gempor are so pissy against Illiir).

The main reason you can't be a priest of Umor is that there are no known surviving elements of his worship, and therefore no Cants known, and no faith to be had because nobody technically venerates him. He can't give powers to shamans that we know of because he can't manifest himself that way, and he can't give Psionic powers because as far as we know there exists no lines derived from his divine essence (conspiracy theory is that the val'Holryn are "His" vals, but there is no proof).

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:20 pm 
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To summarize above in the TL:DR view:

What we mere mortals consider "good" and "evil", or even "righteous" and "heretical" does not necessarily match the views of divine and almost omniscient beings. Just because a person worships a god in a 'heretical' way according to the Mother Church doesn't mean that that god would necessarily agree, because they do not share our beliefs.

As a general view, think about Arcanis Gods more like Lovecraftian gods than Greek gods. In Lovecraft, the gods are generally apathetic to the plights of the individual, but are more concerned with 'broader' concerns like the survival of the species or the destruction of a planet. The suffering or heresy of a single person is so tiny it would be like us concerning ourselves with the interpersonal conflicts between ants.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:48 pm 

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Neat discussion - I have a couple of questions/comments for 5e based on it. (Blatently ignoring the Orcus stuff).

1. So anyone can do ritual casting if they learn the proper way to move their arms, etc? Aka learn how to do it. Until the Arcanis book comes out, this can be represented by the Ritual Caster feat.

2. Ss'ressen males are bad at math. As they can't cast Elder or Eldritch spells. :lol:

Lucas

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Paldaris wrote:
Neat discussion - I have a couple of questions/comments for 5e based on it. (Blatently ignoring the Orcus stuff).

1. So anyone can do ritual casting if they learn the proper way to move their arms, etc? Aka learn how to do it. Until the Arcanis book comes out, this can be represented by the Ritual Caster feat.

2. Ss'ressen males are bad at math. As they can't cast Elder or Eldritch spells. :lol:

Lucas


To 1: I think you are reducing it somewhat, as not EVERYONE can cast. Both Primal and Divine magic can be done by ALMOST anyone, but they both require a caveat to work. In Primal, you make arcane bargains, and for Divine you require a certain level of faith in the deity you are invoking. Not everyone can do this, even if they have the POTENTIAL do do this. As such, Ritual Caster (Feat) is not a direct comparison.

To 2: There is that. Also, it has been stated elsewhere that magical ability is tied to how close a ss'ressen egg is to the heat when they are incubating. The closer they are, the more magical affinity they have, but also the closer they are the more likely the egg will yield a female. As such, males lack the 'spark' necessary to cast Eldritch magic (short-lived mortal races lack the brainpower for Elder) since to be close enough to the fire to get the spark would ultimately lead them to becoming female.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:29 pm 

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I dont have time for a full reply to all these interesting bits, check back in a few hours or tomorrow though, however I have another question. I recall from the 3.5 days that the world of arcanis is "stranded" among the dimensions. Making it hard to access via dimensional travel. Or to access other dimensions from it. So my question is this.. if you physically traveled far enough away from arcanis, could you eventually find other D&D worlds, or other gods?

Assuming you could somehow do this, how would the string that hold the fabric of realty for arcanis respond to this? What If I left Arcanis and brought Helm from forgotten realms back with me? He isnt the creator of mankind, but he is a largely human diety, when he was alive anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Ultimately, the answer to this is "No, you cannot reach Forgotten Realms" and the reason for this is "Cosmic Copyright Laws."

Remember, Arcanis is not (no longer) an officially recognized D&D campaign setting. It is not affiliated (as far as I am aware) with any other D&D setting or gaming organization. As such, Forgotten Realms, Grayhawk, etc simply don't exist in the world of Arcanis.

To the first part of the question, you are correct that dimensional travel is very difficult within Arcanis. In fact, aside from summoning magic which can bring forth Infernals and (some) Shadows to the plane of Arcanis, the only known way that a normal person can pass to other planes of existence is through either very powerful (and labour and resource intensive) rituals like the one Telas used as part of the Elorii Sorcerous Pacts, or the Celestial Giant World Gate. You don't have, randomly, people popping through from other planes for a casual chat with celestial beings or those crazy ooze monsters from the Crusade mod "Condemnation." You need some pretty heavy mojo to pierce the veils between worlds, the likes of which have mostly been lost to the modern Arcanis setting from the high days of the First Imperium or the Empire of Yahssremore.

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Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:18 pm 
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While I mostly agree with Cody analysis (entirely on a practical level of what PCs can do), I'll play devils advocate since saying "yup" a bunch of times gets boring.

CAN YOU THEORETICALLY FIND A FOREIGN DIETY & BRING IT OR ITS FAITH BACK TO ARCANIS: Yes!!! This is exactly what the Ssethrics did/are trying to do with the Varn! Stupid Dragon and mortals who broke the Soulbridge!!!

ARE THERE LOTS & LOTS of DIFFERENT WORLDS in the ARCANIS COSMOS?
Yes. On each layer of the "cosmic onion" there are lots and lots of bubbles or worlds. From the little we have seen some of them seem to worship the PoM and some of them seem to worship other "gods" or "Gods."

IS ONE of THOSE BUBBLES Athas, Greyhawk, Krynn, Mystara or Toril?
I don't know. Maybe??? In the living campaign it's largely irrelevant since there are Arcanis story lines being followed...which aren't "going there." In a home campaign...it's up to the GM. Obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:36 pm 

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val Holryn wrote:
(1) Under ARPG, and what I guess we can call in-world philosophy, all magic is most commonly thought to be tapping the residual energy of the universe left over from the Creator/act of creation. The Mother Church/PoM asserts this entity is dead. This was spelled out the original campaign in (IIRC) Magic of Arcanis. I would add my personal interpretation that the "corner of magic" that has been beaten into "a science" and works predictably for "the known world" is called the Arcanum. Lots of applications in Ymandragore (and even more exotic locations) are strange a wonderful even to experienced casters.


I have the blessed lands and sorcerous pacts pdfs, but have not yet found time to fully read them, I'm sure some of my philosophical conundrums could be answered in those.

That aside.. The one true creator, the one who made the world, the space it resides in, the cosmos around it, including other planets, the plane of existence that all of that resides in ( presumably we are still calling that the material plane) is known to have been created by something?

This is actually the first mention of this I have ever heard. There is plenty of small tid bits, places, origin stories for various magics or things or what have you that I don't know, even in the Primer there are references to things I'm unaware of existing, prior to reading their name's or seeing them mentioned. Such as the Crucible of Sins, in reference to the Deathbringers of Narroth. I imagine that is a plane of existence that is for Narroth in some way or another.

Also, so Illir is dead? How does he still have worshipers if he is dead? I'd ask where these clerics get magic from, but the gods being alive, seems to have little to do with their cants working, given the metaphysics of the Arcanis Universe. So long as the caster does as described and has faith, or whatever else the spell needs, it works. My question here is, if he is known to be dead, why do people worship him?

val Holryn wrote:
(2) People believe ALL magical sources derive from this origin. This is true for Cants and priests as well as psions, shamanism and "wizards." Thus from a certain perspective priests are essentially a kind of church sponsored wizard. In Arcanis they do NOT get their powers by channeling an infinitesimal portion of divine power. They use rote learning to keep and pass on the arcane formulas given to them by the Gods or Their Valinor in the Mythic Age or dawn of the First Imperium.

(3) what makes Cants different are (a) Priests don't know how to really modify them to create advanced spells or new spells. If mankind was meant to know how to do something with the Arcanum then *somewhere* the right Can't was left to work that miracle. Also (b) Cants require true faith in the Gods to "pull the trigger" on their spells. No faith in the Gods? Can't use Cants. A cynic or mourner might say, "It's almost like the Gods don't trust us with the unfettered magic ..."


Interesting, So clerics and other divine casters are not tapping into their gods own power. Rather they are using naturally occurring magic, by reciting cants that were given from their gods and require faith as a "spell component". Basically, all casters/psions tap the same magic to do their variations of magic?

I understand they all use it differently, learn it differently and may even not personally think it is the same thing.. but if it ultimately is the same thing, do the characters in this game even realize this? Or is this fact a in game philosophical discussion they probably have wars over?

val Holryn wrote:
(4) what makes Druidism/Shamanism/Warlock-ery different that "wizardry" is that the practitioner makes pacts with various beings to do a lot of the arcane heavy lifting. This frees oneself from needing a PhD in Magical Theory and in the case of "Humanity" frees one from the debilitating effects of using the gift. The bad news is you get saddled with Taboos and potentially have to keep your spirits happy so they keep helping you. In extreme cases this might mean selling your soul.


While not all warlock pacts require dark sacrifices, such as a pact with Orcus or whatever dark demon you want to sub in there, I imagine even the Fey pact requires something from you, adleast on a Roleplaying level if not mechanically. Though I cant recall a single time I've seen anything even remotely relating the the Fey Wild in any edition of Arcanis.

So I'm actually not sure with what you are making a pact if you are a Fey Warlock. Especially considering the lack of a Fey Wild to go to, visit, or have creature of that realm to come to Arcanis to even offer the pact in the first place?

In theory it makes perfect sense, that if you simply don't have the aptitude to be a wizard, or whatever kind of caster you wanted to be, you might turn to other powers to get some level of magic. Obviously from 5E to ARPG its a bit different, mechanical and fluff wise.

val Holryn wrote:
(5) what makes Eldritch/Elder different is you do it all on your own. No safety nets. On the down side if you screw up badly while tinkering with the Arcanum you blow yourself up. On the plus side if you live long enough to figure it all out then you cut and paste parts of known spells together how ever you like - and don't have to worry about what Gods, Temples or Spirits think of your choices. For Eldritch practitioners the guesstimating you make take a toll on your body over the years in the form of the wasting disease.


Yes I was just re reading the primer, and your pretty much spot on with its descriptions. So being a Wizard, or a Sorcerer is almost like being a "Mad Scientist"! lol

val Holryn wrote:
(6) What makes psionics different is you process the left over energy of creation biologically rather than through mentally plumbing the metaphysics of reality. Go strange glands in Val heads! Through concentration (and essentially solipsism) you then alter reality (in very limited ways) to match your desires.


So Vals have "Extra Glands" In their brains huh? No wonder they are all so moody, must be headaches all the time with that. lol

val Holryn wrote:
WHY CAN'T I BE A PRIEST of ORCUS: presumably Orcus does not know, and thus can't teach, Cants. This Is/Was certainly true for Uhxbractit who is....


So for the sake of conversation, Uhxbractit, is The "Demon/Devil" of the game, He comes from another plane of existence, Hell or the Abyss / whatever you call it. So is he the Top dog of that Realm? Or is he just the one that came to Arcanis in the past during the Time of Terror when the Sorcerer Kings Curse and his Ego, basically screwed over everybody.

val Holryn wrote:
WHY CAN'T I WORSHIP the OTHER: ...uh. Well you can if you really want to. But there are no Cants that have survived into the modern day (at least where PCs can find them). So you really can't be an initiate in the divine sense. Most people don't worship the OTHER because it could get you in trouble & make you a pariah or flat out get you killed (definitely in Coryan & Canceri). In the First City you wouldn't be killed for being a lay follower. Kind of an interesting idea.


I of course have always felt that the story about how the POM are the good guys, and are fighting against a great destroyer is largely propaganda and exists as a veil for their continued conquest of the respective multiverse. I mean they have lied a lot to their worshipers haven't they? I think Anshar or Saulwe is actually The Ssethric diety Yig, right? That brings into question the vals of that god.

I basically always suspected that mourners of silence were worshiping the other, without knowing it. That or some Call of Cathullu monster like the Myrantians worship.

Though that organization has different versions of itself. My 3.5 era Dark-kin was a mourner, but he didn't think the gods were dead, obviously as by things he had seen, he just thought they literally did not care, because mortals had so consistently disappointed them over and over again during their entire existence. Whatever "divine" things he saw were, in his view, caused by mortals using the gods magic, or fallen/ left over servants of the gods attempting to complete tasks given to them long ago. Like a robot or computer trying to move down a hall way that is blocked, and it cant unblock it, or something along those lines. So they just sit their waiting for when they can finally act on their orders.

I imagine The other as Dormamu from Dr. Strange, he grants eternal life and peace, but not the kind your think of.

Nierite wrote:
To summarize above in the TL:DR view:

What we mere mortals consider "good" and "evil", or even "righteous" and "heretical" does not necessarily match the views of divine and almost omniscient beings. Just because a person worships a god in a 'heretical' way according to the Mother Church doesn't mean that that god would necessarily agree, because they do not share our beliefs.

As a general view, think about Arcanis Gods more like Lovecraftian gods than Greek gods. In Lovecraft, the gods are generally apathetic to the plights of the individual, but are more concerned with 'broader' concerns like the survival of the species or the destruction of a planet. The suffering or heresy of a single person is so tiny it would be like us concerning ourselves with the interpersonal conflicts between ants.


Thank you for your reply, both this one and the larger one above it. Seeing as you and Val Holryn, covered many of the same topics with variations of the same, or similar answers. I'm not going to fully quote you, as it is simply to time consuming to edit all that so its readable in a reply. Thank you all for these lengthy replies though, I find this discussion very interesting.

That said, What is the core difference between the current worship of the Branches of the POM and the original worship of these gods? I feel I asked this before somewhere.. but I don't remember. Is the original teachings, more in line with these love craftian or greek inspired gods and their intended tenants for their worshipers?

I imagine that if they ever wanted worshipers at all, they had to teach them something, so while all the Arcanis gods may be vague or above our morality or however you wish to see it. If they want worshipers, or rather want to steer humanity in a certain direction they view as right, then I imagine if any of the Tenants were "more correct" it'd be the First church, during the Grand olden days of the Imperium of man, right?

Oh and, whats this about the Val Holryns being The Others Angelic offspring to mortals? I'd buy into that, lol!

_________________
Ryan Ramsey
Lo Gorie- Dark-Kin Barbarian 1 & Fighter 3. FL: Legio Anguis Reptatus.
Savic No Taste- Ghost Scale 1.4 Expert, Exile, Assassin Initiate, Weirdo.


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