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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:52 am 
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Quick answer to one question: Yes, Neroth killed Illiir. However, Cadic went on a magical journey and brought him back from the dead. This all happened in the 'mythic age' before anything otherwise known, and definitely before the God's War.

Uhxbractit was the Infernal Lord who ruled the Infernals who invaded during the Time of Terror, but he is no god. He is very powerful, and he is immortal as we knew it, but he would be the "powerful being" like a Sphinx rather than any sort of god. I doubt he'd even be able to provide even Shaman spells and I don't recall it ever coming up. Definitely not even a 'demi-God' like a Valinor. For reference, we got an example of an Infernal God during one of the Crusade adventures, further showing Uhx to be much, much less than a god.

To the more direct reference to my own post, we don't know exactly what the 'original' worship of the PoM was. The God's War was some 5,000 years ago, so it is very equivalent to remembering the original worship of the Sumerians or the Egyptians or the pre-Harrapan Indian religions (before the era of the internet and the Enlightenment). After almost 2,000 years of dark ages of the Shadowed Age, so much of this knowledge was lost or destroyed that the First Imperium itself is semi-mythical to people of the modern world.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:24 am 
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The core difference between the PoM and their original form of worship in the First Imperium is the devolution of knowledge and power from a Pantheistic organization that honored all the Gods to what I see now as a framework/alliance between the Temples of 12 Deities.

In the First Imperium we know most priests were patheonists under the Heirophant and DID NOT worship any particular god. A minority of "specialty priests" tended to specific needs of each individual Gods.

Now the specialty priests essentially run the show. They have essentially federated together under a Patriarch/Matriarch but each Temple is responsible for their own Dogma. The Mother Church governs and adjudicates the "territorial administration" of the Church and disputes between Temples. It may influence individual Temples. But Temples also push back. Once Neroth, Nier & Sarish got banned (they are all back). Currently Elandre and the Sensates are on a slow motion collision course. There are NO true pantheonist priests and most Pantheonist Cants appear to be lost.

The closest we have to the old Pantheonists are the Death Mongers (who treat 3 Gods equally) and perhaps some members of the Orthodoxy.

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:34 am 

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Of course all this is speculation and hypothesis. It can be completely or partially correct or wrong.

Time will tell. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:12 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:31 pm
Posts: 69
Location: U.S.A. Ohio
Nierite wrote:
Quick answer to one question: Yes, Neroth killed Illiir. However, Cadic went on a magical journey and brought him back from the dead. This all happened in the 'mythic age' before anything otherwise known, and definitely before the God's War.

Uhxbractit was the Infernal Lord who ruled the Infernals who invaded during the Time of Terror, but he is no god. He is very powerful, and he is immortal as we knew it, but he would be the "powerful being" like a Sphinx rather than any sort of god. I doubt he'd even be able to provide even Shaman spells and I don't recall it ever coming up. Definitely not even a 'demi-God' like a Valinor. For reference, we got an example of an Infernal God during one of the Crusade adventures, further showing Uhx to be much, much less than a god.

To the more direct reference to my own post, we don't know exactly what the 'original' worship of the PoM was. The God's War was some 5,000 years ago, so it is very equivalent to remembering the original worship of the Sumerians or the Egyptians or the pre-Harrapan Indian religions (before the era of the internet and the Enlightenment). After almost 2,000 years of dark ages of the Shadowed Age, so much of this knowledge was lost or destroyed that the First Imperium itself is semi-mythical to people of the modern world.


Ah then there is a larger cosmos around even the devils. Interesting, I'm sure that god will never find his way to Arcanis, lol..

So whats this about the Val holryn's being the others? I'd like to hear about this conspiracy theory.

Yeah, I knew the part about the Grand olden days and how they are looked back on with awe and what not. I am of course curious if the other is truly asleep or locked away. And where is he locked away? Its always a good story, my home game has one of those ancient times story hooks.

Uncovering stuff, delving into old, ancient places in the hopes of helping the "modern" world and being a little bit of the indiana jones we all want to be during these adventures is probably the best part of dnd, sometimes.

val Holryn wrote:
The core difference between the PoM and their original form of worship in the First Imperium is the devolution of knowledge and power from a Pantheistic organization that honored all the Gods to what I see now as a framework/alliance between the Temples of 12 Deities.

In the First Imperium we know most priests were patheonists under the Heirophant and DID NOT worship any particular god. A minority of "specialty priests" tended to specific needs of each individual Gods.

Now the specialty priests essentially run the show. They have essentially federated together under a Patriarch/Matriarch but each Temple is responsible for their own Dogma. The Mother Church governs and adjudicates the "territorial administration" of the Church and disputes between Temples. It may influence individual Temples. But Temples also push back. Once Neroth, Nier & Sarish got banned (they are all back). Currently Elandre and the Sensates are on a slow motion collision course. There are NO true pantheonist priests and most Pantheonist Cants appear to be lost.

The closest we have to the old Pantheonists are the Death Mongers (who treat 3 Gods equally) and perhaps some members of the Orthodoxy.



Interesting. Thank you for the info! Now Elandre is the daughter of Calsestus right? Sensates is the Pope of the Milandisian church correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Gods and Old ones, Warlocks and Clerics
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:30 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Elandre is not the daughter of Calcestus. They ere (at best) "cousins," but Leola in the First City actually is a first cousin to the late Emperor. The Sensates are not Milandesian but are one half of the Temple of Larissa (the other half are the Oracular sect). Their stronghold is Savona and they believe in the embrace the headonism of Larissa.

But Elandre's life may be in danger from Calemnon. Hard to believe the two of them are going to get along. Elandre is fairly rigid and not good at compromise. Calemnon seems to have a strong misogynistic streak. We'll see.

No one knows where the Val Holryn come from. Our earliest references of hem come from the very end of the First Imperium. Know knows when they originated or which Diety or Dieties created them. Or even if they were created by a Valinor. They uniquely have the ability of multiple different Val lines. How is this possible? One theory is that they were created by The Other. Since The Other absorbed some of the various Gods essence that explains why they manifest different powers. If The Other is Kassegore (a separate conspiracy theory centered on the adventure For the Lesser Gods) then it also makes sense that they welcomed in the Black Talons. Another possibility I consider is that they were created in the Bloodwar as an attempt to combine all the Bloodline Powers and that reference to being the Bastard Children of the gods means they haven't directly descended from a Valinor but are at least one step removed.

PCIHenry wrote:
Of course all this is speculation and hypothesis. It can be completely or partially correct or wrong.

Time will tell. :-)


Yes. We only have some of the puzzle pieces and much of our knowledge comes from opinions instead of objective facts. I like to think of the uncertainty as job security for Tukufu. :P

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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